Pirelli 2013

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CHT
CHT
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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SectorOne wrote:
CHT wrote:Having just completed the race at Barcelona with the same car, I think it should be pretty straight forward for the team to guess which tyres they are running even if they are unmarked.
And how would they guess that? All of the tires were tires they had never run before.
It´s post-Canada and 2014 tires they ran, not current tires.
F1 drivers are supposed to be the experts in tyres and tyres management. By studying lap times and performance gaps between different sets of tyres, the driver should be able to have a good idea of what tyres they are running and how these new tyres perform against those they ran a few days ago.

Having such information will then give Merc a advantage of knowing how to develop their cars to optimize the new tyres.

Jersey Tom
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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CHT wrote:
SectorOne wrote:
CHT wrote:Having just completed the race at Barcelona with the same car, I think it should be pretty straight forward for the team to guess which tyres they are running even if they are unmarked.
And how would they guess that? All of the tires were tires they had never run before.
It´s post-Canada and 2014 tires they ran, not current tires.
F1 drivers are supposed to be the experts in tyres and tyres management. By studying lap times and performance gaps between different sets of tyres, the driver should be able to have a good idea of what tyres they are running and how these new tyres perform against those they ran a few days ago.
Ehhh.. now while I feel like Merc is still getting an advantage from having the extra track time and data, I'm wary to give the drivers as much credit as you allude to.
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CHT
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Jersey Tom wrote:
Ehhh.. now while I feel like Merc is still getting an advantage from having the extra track time and data, I'm wary to give the drivers as much credit as you allude to.
I am not saying they are expert in making tyres, but they should have a very good feel for the tyres and the tyres characteristic.

Pup
Pup
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Well, both Ferrari and Red Bull are backing down now, taking the 'we only wanted to know if we can do the same' angle. And reportedly Bernie has called the teams and told them to deal with it, because he's told Pirelli to make whatever changes they want for Canada, regardless of who protests.

Which sounds to me like Pirelli are about to sign their contract for next year.

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FW17
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Jersey Tom wrote: Hankook are ready? How do you figure? Or in what regard? They've never built a single F1 tire before. Do they have the factory / build equipment? Do they have any clue on what type of mold profiles, constructions, and tread compounds they'd need to use? I feel like DTM just isn't anywhere near close enough to be a comparison point (much with Pirelli's previous experience before joining F1). Do they have the infrastructure to support the teams testing and data needs?

Michelin on the other hand has been in F1 before - quite successfully - and I think just have an immense amount more technical expertise, racing background and resource to bring to bear. Not all tire companies or automotive suppliers are the same. Michelin I want to say are literally 10x larger than Hankook (at least on a worldwide employee basis).

If I were a F1 team going into a season where the options were Michelin or Hankook, I'd be desperately doing anything I could to get on the Michelin list. Maybe after some time if Hankook poured tons of money and engineers at the series they might be able to achieve parity.. but even that would be tough! I think it just wouldn't be remotely close competition.

Just my outlook on things.

F1 tyre design is done by a small group of engineers and does not necessarily depend on the the size of the company or racing expertise over the years. When bridgestone wound up their f1 programme a lot of their staff moved around just like bridgestone absorbed a lot of good year guys. DTM was a great place to start in terms of getting their team ready and infrastructure in place, which they did not have in 2011.

Would F1 teams go for hankook? damm sure they would if they are free or cheaper. The reason last time michelin lost out to pirelli was not because they wanted a tyre war but because their bid was costlier to the teams.

lotus7
lotus7
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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IIRC , from quite awhile back when FIA were looking for a Bridgestone replacer, that Hankook was interested but only in supplying low profile tyres ( as per DTM ) and not 13" rimmed tyres ? Reason being that low profile, big rims are what the general (modern) market preference is .

Any truth in this ?

Richard
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Low profile tyres would be an interesting change because it'd result in changes to the suspension design and car handling. Riding kerbs will be much challenging. The downside is that teams wouldn't have to worry about side wall deflection so aero could benefit (boo hiss).

Huntresa
Huntresa
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn3oOIiaCvM

"30 maybe 35 specifications..." Dont think Merc can get much knowledge from that if they tested that much.

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Cam
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Huntresa wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn3oOIiaCvM

"30 maybe 35 specifications..." Dont think Merc can get much knowledge from that if they tested that much.
Perhaps. It could also be 30 maybe 35 specifications of experience they gained that no other team did and that looks like a lot of knowledge.
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Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
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banibhusan
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Cam wrote: Perhaps. It could also be 30 maybe 35 specifications of experience they gained that no other team did and that looks like a lot of knowledge.
Well, that would depend on whether they were aware of the characteristics of the different spec tires, isn't it?? If they were completely in the unknown, then what benefit will it bring?

Similarly, I doubt whether they can gain advantage of testing any new mechanical or aero components, since they are bound to change with tire characteristics. Though it helps in analyzing the reliability of the car. Please correct me if I am wrong.

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Cam
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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A blind test is still a test. You gain lots of data, not just tyre related. All the engineers were looking at the engine, gearbox, suspension, fluids, pit stops, plus a whole lot more. Lap times were tracked, driver feedback listened to, comparisons made. This goes beyond a simple tyre test. That's why current cars are banned from doing it. You gain advantage.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Pup wrote:Well, both Ferrari and Red Bull are backing down now, taking the 'we only wanted to know if we can do the same' angle. And reportedly Bernie has called the teams and told them to deal with it, because he's told Pirelli to make whatever changes they want for Canada, regardless of who protests. Which sounds to me like Pirelli are about to sign their contract for next year.
Very astute remark, Pup! I can only repeat myself. Pirelli broke the stalemate by a bold interpretation of the rules. If they get pulled in front of an international tribunal they will have a good defence because they obeyed the letter of the law by inviting all teams in 2012. They did not have to listen to any FOTA agreements because there is no Concord in place to give FOTA's decisions legality.

Pirelli's commercial position as a result of the completed test is very strong. They are miles ahead of Hankook or Michelin in preparation for 2014. F1 was failing to give their current supplier enough testing before he boldly acquired enough data. How can any other company hope to come anywhere near the knowledge Pirelli now have due to the test? Bernie and the teams know this very well. They would not dare to rely on another company to get the 2014 rubber right. So Pup is right to point out that commercially the test has cleared the situation and it is all green for Pirelli to go forward as the chosen supplier in 2014.

I believe the FiA and a potential international tribunal will consider that Pirelli were between a rock and a hard place as a consequence of the current concord mess. Todt is not a dumb man. He is unlikely to fight a battle that is already lost if he had any intentions to bring French company Michelin back into F1. He will equally have very little reason to bring Hankook into F1 to the detriment of the 2014 development situation. The teams will have enough on their plate to cope with new power plants and new aerodynamic configurations. They do not need a rookie tyre supplier to complicate the job. So I see very little reason for a political intervention by the FiA. It means that a tribunal if it is even convened will be in a position to use a ton of discretion on the alleged rule breaking.

My view is that the FiA will probably arrange a deal behind closed doors which will satisfy the complaining teams Red Bull and Ferrari. Perhaps they are promised similar tests during the rest of the running season which would re-establish the sporting equity. It would make an awefull lot of sense all round to terminate the affair that way.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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MOWOG
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Don't see this mentioned so far in this thread, so here's the latest rumor:

Pirelli close to 2014 F1 contract

Tyres, Spanish GP 2013 © The Cahier Archive
Pirelli is closer to inking a deal to stay in formula one beyond 2013, following a meeting in Monaco. After Paul Hembery warned that Pirelli could quit F1 due to the delayed negotiations, Spain's AS sports newspaper reports that Pirelli president Marco Tronchetti Provera met with Bernie Ecclestone.

"We are approaching the conditions (to sign)," Provera said, "so we'll see. "The fact is that Bernie is happy with us and also our company is still interested in the F1 project, so I hope we can get to an agreement soon and all will be well," he added.

Tronchetti Provera said he is proud of Pirelli's contribution to the sport so far. "We were asked to add more 'show' to the races, and I think the races are better now than before our arrival, so I think in that sense we have succeeded," he insisted.

As for the controversy caused by Pirelli's heavily degrading compounds in 2013, he explained: "We have developed the tyres with a car several years old, and with not enough days of testing."

Meanwhile, it seems Pirelli will introduce some changes to its tyre design for Canada in two weeks after all, despite the opposition of some teams, including Force India. "I did it like the old days," Bernie Ecclestone is quoted by Germany's Auto Motor und Sport. "I told the teams that they should be united. "Pirelli will modify its tyres as planned," the F1 chief executive revealed.
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FoxHound
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Cam wrote:A blind test is still a test. You gain lots of data, not just tyre related. All the engineers were looking at the engine, gearbox, suspension, fluids, pit stops, plus a whole lot more. Lap times were tracked, driver feedback listened to, comparisons made. This goes beyond a simple tyre test. That's why current cars are banned from doing it. You gain advantage.
How does Pirelli replicate 2013 downforce levels? How do you know for a fact that all the engineers where looking at engine, gearbox, suspension, fluids to improve their own performance?

You do realise the tyres where unmarked?

So please tell me how an engineer goes about recording data on a compound he has absolutely no idea about?
I would say it would probably confuse the hell out of you trying to fathom which is what. Chasing blind alleys etc.
JET set

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FoxHound
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Mercedes' Niki Lauda, however, told Brazil's O Estado de S.Paulo that the FIA "sent a delegate" to the test, and that Charlie Whiting and Bernie Ecclestone knew about it as well. A Pirelli spokesman said Ferrari was invited to test and turned down the offer, while Dr Helmut Marko said a Red Bull engineer had also been "informally" asked.

It is rumoured that Red Bull and Ferrari both said no because they believed the test would have to be done with a two-year old car. Indeed, between Bahrain and China, a Pirelli tyre test took place with a 2010 Ferrari.
JET set