Pirelli 2013

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Gaara wrote:So if the test was for Pirelli, why they didn't let Pirelli test drivers test the tyres? Why lewis and nico?
A big part of the value for Pirelli was keeping the Merc side of the test identical to the conditions in the race. That way they can correlate the test results to the performance of the other cars. Using their own drivers would have negated that big prize. I believe that Pirelli really bagged a big one there and it enables them to negotiate from a strong commercial position.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Jonnycraig
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WhiteBlue wrote:I have no doubt that any kind of inequity that occurred can be easily cured by further tests of similar make up with other teams. It appears to me that the tribunal will also see it that way. It has been reported that the FiA had observers at the test. It is up to the federation to make sure the other teams get similar opportunities.
Which I'd wager is the general expectation of everyone. A 1000km test for the other 10 teams, perhaps after the British GP. The fact still remains though that until such a test could be arranged, Mercedes are still aided with the equivalent of 3 race weekends more running than their rivals.

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diffuser
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I don't think they should change tires to the new tires (safety issue or not) till everyone's been able to run the same 3 day test. I don't care about the details, no testing means no testing for anyone. I also believe they should loose all their points from the beginning of the year.

I also wish that Red Bull would stop with their red BULL on tires in an attempt to coverup their own ineptitude. Now that the FIA has said that basically they can't have a big change (something they likely already knew) in the tires what's the point ? Your just bashing the sport in general.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Jonnycraig wrote:Which I'd wager is the general expectation of everyone. A 1000km test for the other 10 teams, perhaps after the British GP. The fact still remains though that until such a test could be arranged, Mercedes are still aided with the equivalent of 3 race weekends more running than their rivals.
I would think that not all teams are interested in such a tyre test. You also have to consider that only two teams made a formal complaint, Ferrari and Red Bull. This is an indication that they expect to be given the same testing. Other teams including Lotus may not even use such an opportunity due to their financial constraints and lack of technical rewards from such a test.
diffuser wrote:I don't think they should change tires to the new tires (safety issue or not) till everyone's been able to run the same 3 day test. I don't care about the details, no testing means no testing for anyone.
That appears to be a radical point of view that does not align with the published plans of FOM and Pirelli. The chances of implementations seem to be zero for your request.
diffuser wrote:I also believe they (Mercedes) should loose all their points from the beginning of the year.
This also seems to be a very radical judgement which appears inappropriate to the general situation discussed in the thread. It is unlikely IMO that a tribunal will take that view.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Jonnycraig
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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WhiteBlue wrote:
Jonnycraig wrote:Which I'd wager is the general expectation of everyone. A 1000km test for the other 10 teams, perhaps after the British GP. The fact still remains though that until such a test could be arranged, Mercedes are still aided with the equivalent of 3 race weekends more running than their rivals.
I would think that not all teams are interested in such a tyre test. You also have to consider that only two teams made a formal complaint, Ferrari and Red Bull. This is an indication that they expect to be given the same testing. Other teams including Lotus may not even use such an opportunity due to their financial constraints and lack of technical rewards from such a test.
Clearly certain teams may not be interested, but every other team must now be offered the chance of such a test.

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pocketmoon
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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raymondu999 wrote:
Analysis: How Pirelli Montreal change will handicap ‘tyre-swapping’ teams

<snip>
The 2013 steel belt tyres are ‘handed,’ meaning that they are marked left and right and are intended by Pirelli to be used on that side of the car.
<snip>
Source: http://adamcooperf1.com/2013/05/28/anal ... ing-teams/
Is there a visual key on the tyres to determine which side is which ?

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WhiteBlue
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Jonnycraig wrote:Clearly certain teams may not be interested, but every other team must now be offered the chance of such a test.
That is a fair assessment, agreed!
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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turbof1
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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I think most if not all teams will, if given the oppertunity, now want to test, because:

-A mercedes car was tested for 1000km; whether or not the team got an advantage out of it, those teams will want the balance restored.
-Pirelli paid almost all of the costs of the test. Basicilly, this would be a far cheaper alternative then wind tunnel testing for the teams.

However, if Pirelli did the testing themselves, it'll be difficult to test all cars at once. They have to monitor 10 cars at once (given mercedes does not participate) and teams supposingly aren't allowed to assist in that or only at the background without access to the data.
#AeroFrodo

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WhiteBlue
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A very interesting contribution from Joe Saward
A curious turn of events

May 28, 2013 by Joe Saward

The FIA statement after the Monaco GP that suggested that Pirelli and Mercedes-Benz might not have had proper permission to go testing after Barcelona rang alarm bells on Sunday night in Monte Carlo. The original stories about illegal testing were clearly a storm in a teacup, but the FIA announcement that evening raised eyebrows.

Firstly, the FIA rarely does anything quickly when it comes to Formula 1 and the press release came out with such alacrity after the stewards ruling that it seemed decidedly out of character. The statement seems to have taken Mercedes and Pirelli rather by surprise as well, as they clearly thought that what they were doing was OK. There is, logically, no reason for either organisation to do anything to get themselves into trouble with the federation and while other teams may have squawked about the test that took place there was no obvious reason to suggest that any advantage had been gained. It was just another opportunity to squawk, just as Red Bull did after the Spanish GP.

So what on earth, if anything, was going on? An FIA Tribunal will examine the matter at some point in the next few weeks, although it will probably not happen before Canada. We will see in Montreal whether Mercedes has really made such a huge leap forward in terms of tyre performance, or whether the win in Monaco was more to do with the nature of the track than the tyres. It will still be hard to judge because teams make progress all the time, but if the cars fade in the race as they have at other tracks, then there will be indication.

The FIA says that while approval was given for the test, there are aspects of what happened that are questionable. There is no doubt that in the Sporting Regulations it says that teams are not allowed to test current cars during the season, except for a number of straight line aerodynamic tests and the Young Driver test. They are, however, allowed to run cars that are two years old or more. Pirelli says that in its contract, it is allowed to ask a team to supply a car for testing if there is a safety issue involved. There is an argument that this was required after some tyre failures in Bahrain, although Pirelli itself has said that safety was not compromised by the treads coming off. Ferrari did agree to do a test for Pirelli in Barcelona with a 2011 car driven by Pedro de la Rosa. Given that Pirelli says that old cars are not much use for testing 2013 tyres, it is an odd thing to have done, although it is always possible that Pirelli reached that conclusion during the Ferrari test. Whatever the case, plans were then made for Mercedes to do a three day test, between May 15 and 17 in Barcelona, using a 2013 car.

The tests were not announced because it seems that Pirelli was worried that any attempt to test would be met with the kind of uproar and bad publicity that was heard in Monaco on Sunday. It was a better idea to get the job done on the quiet and not have to deal with a storm of noise in the media. That argument makes a lot of sense.

The FIA is disputing that it agreed to the test that occurred, which suggests that Mercedes and Pirelli took advantage of the situation. However Pirelli argues that it did not inform Mercedes what tyres were being tested and that these were a combination of work that was useful for 2014 and in an effort to solve the problem of the tread coming off, as was seen in Bahrain. These tyres were likely to have been different constructions, profiles and compounds and as we have seen on many occasions this year the 2013 tyres behave very differently in different temperatures and so arguing that Mercedes will have gained an advantage is stretching the argument.

So it is fair to say that the problem is not about the tyres, but rather about how and why the test came about. The technical people at the FIA know that it is unlikely that Mercedes gained any advantage from the test, so if there is trouble it is for reasons other than those being stated by the rival teams.

All of this is occurring against a backdrop of negotiations for a new tyre deal for 2014-2015-2016. Pirelli is making the point that it is a bit too late to change and that the teams need to agree to the financial deals on offer or the sport could find itself without a tyre supplier, if Pirelli decides to walk.

So the real question is whether or not it is too late for another tyre company to replace Pirelli.

Turn back the clock three years to May 2010 and there was a similar story going on. The sport had yet to agree whether to use Pirelli or Michelin. The French company’s offer was attractive, both technically and financially, but there was a political game going on in the background. Bernie Ecclestone wanted Pirelli, FIA President Jean Todt wanted Michelin. The question was really over who had the right to decide.

Was it a commercial matter or a sporting one?

In some championships the FIA asks for bids from suppliers, in others it leaves it up to the commercial rights holder. It is not clear who should decide. In 2010 the deal for 2011-2012-2013 went to Pirelli. The FIA accepted the situation after Michelin backed away from the negotiations. It was in many respects a victory for Ecclestone but the FIA had no choice but to accept the deal in the circumstances. The announcement was made on June 23 after the deal had been signed off by the World Motor Sport Council. In the press release at the time the FIA noted that “the sole supplier will undertake to strictly respect the sporting and technical regulations implemented by the FIA”. It was an odd statement. Now that there has been a glitch it sounds almost threatening.

Conspiracy theorists in F1 circles are now suggesting that the minor kerfuffle in Monaco has become something rather bigger, not because Mercedes gained any great advantage as rival teams are arguing, but rather because it has presented the FIA with an opportunity to reassert its power on the question of who decides on the technical partnerships of the Formula 1 World Championship. Both the FIA and FOM claim the right, but the outcome is more to do with who plays a better political game at the moment the deal is done.

If Pirelli was able to bang out the right kind of tyres in 2010-2011 despite the decision not being made until the World Council meeting in June, the same must be possible for Michelin in 2013-2014.

The other elements of this so-called scandal can be written off as being a sign of the disjointed nature of the sport at the moment, with the teams fighting over anything and everything because they are unhappy with one another about commercial deals struck and other political games played.

It will be interesting to see what happens next.
For me the main take away points from JS blog are:
  • Merc are unlikely to have profited from the test
  • the FiA statement came very quickly, in fact with a worrying speed
  • there is a likely coalition Pirelli/FOM against Michelin/FiA for the next tyre contract
  • Michelin should be capable to supply tyres for 2014 (which I thought less possible until now)
  • the FiA might use this to push Michelin (which I thought unlikely until now)
If Joe is right the problem will rather lie with Pirelli than with Merc. The tyre supply contract will become a bargaining chip in the wider Concord negotiations.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Pup
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That assumes that Michelin want the contract. To my knowledge, they still don't want in F1 unless they have someone to compete against, and no one wants to compete against them.

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diffuser
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It was really poor judgement to test with Merc with nobody knowing. There are rumors swirling that Merc tested their new gearbox casing during that time. So if they hadn't tested, the possibility of either Lewis or Nico (or both) retiring because of this new Casing would have been higher. With nobody else there, how do we know they didn't test a whole slew of new parts?


On the other had with all the bad press their getting, I don't understand why Pirelli would want to to continue in F1.

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Cam
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WhiteBlue wrote:
Jonnycraig wrote:Clearly certain teams may not be interested, but every other team must now be offered the chance of such a test.
That is a fair assessment, agreed!
Then those teams would be in breach. The only option, if Merc is found guilty, is to punish them. A cerimonial tribunal would be a disaster for F1. At this time, more than ever, it needs clear decisions, leadership, and a ruling that ensures nothing like this is attempted again. Remember, negligence is not an excuse.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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diffuser
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Cam
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FoxHound wrote:
Cam wrote:A blind test is still a test. You gain lots of data, not just tyre related. All the engineers were looking at the engine, gearbox, suspension, fluids, pit stops, plus a whole lot more. Lap times were tracked, driver feedback listened to, comparisons made. This goes beyond a simple tyre test. That's why current cars are banned from doing it. You gain advantage.
How does Pirelli replicate 2013 downforce levels? How do you know for a fact that all the engineers where looking at engine, gearbox, suspension, fluids to improve their own performance?

You do realise the tyres where unmarked?

So please tell me how an engineer goes about recording data on a compound he has absolutely no idea about?
I would say it would probably confuse the hell out of you trying to fathom which is what. Chasing blind alleys etc.
I put faith in the data acquisition systems and the experience of the team to interpret that data. E.g.
"How was that run Lewis"
"No better, do the stats back that up?"
"Yes, let's try a setup change and go again"

You don't need to know the markings, just the characteristics. And you don't even need to be 100% accurate. The fact a team was allowed to run and compare setups/tyres on a current car - is an advantage. If they found a "sweet spot", well guess what setup is tried first at Canada. It may not be right, but its a head start that others don't get. Pun intended.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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WhiteBlue
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Pup wrote:That assumes that Michelin want the contract. To my knowledge, they still don't want in F1 unless they have someone to compete against, and no one wants to compete against them.
We do not know what Michelin have agreed with Todt in 2010. For the public their last stance was competition or we do not want it. But that may have changed with time going by and heads changing in their board meeting.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)