2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

[SmallSoldier]

They also wouldn't have had his telemetry that Showed he had a much higher entry speed compared to his previous lap, While Lewis was almost identical to his previous lap.
https://i.imgur.com/oujRda0_d.webp?maxw ... elity=high

I think this is quite supplementary to the video evidence, or maybe, even more telling. He wasn't worried about getting the car slowed down enough to make the corner one bit...

I think he just did a ham-fisted blocking move with no real thought about the consequences. I do wonder if it's things like this move that show his relative lack of experience in single seat racing. Yes, he's been in F1 for a while now and showed that he as quick/quicker as any driver out there, but he did very little junior single seat racing - one season between karts and F1. Those junior formulae are where the drivers learn the niceties of close racing in cars that are similar in performance as we have this year. But he's a smart guy and will doubtless learn from Brazil and do things a little differently next time. Or he'll just think "I got away with it so I'll do it again". And then there will be a shunt. Maybe Mercedes asking for a review will make him think "I'll do it differently next time" and that's great.

I don’t think that at this point he is lacking experience, he knows exactly what he is doing… The issue is that he has gotten away with it so many times that it is now perceived as acceptable. The amount of experience he has now in F1 is more than plenty.

And I don’t think that Mercedes asking for a review will make him change the way he approaches this type of situations.

[dans79]

Not that I think that criteria should be relevant to an incident, a driver successfully avoiding contact should not exonerate a racing code crime. We will see.

Some precedent exists for that issue as well.

Norris got a penalty in Austria for running Perez off the track, and no contact was made!



here is massi on the austrian penalties.
https://racer.com/2021/07/05/masi-expla ... n-austria/

“The stewards had a look at all three,” Masi said. “In the first case, it was Sergio and Lando and their view was that he was wholly alongside Lando and therefore there is an onus to leave car’s width to the edge of the track. And then the same in the reverse with Checo and Charles at the exit of Turn 4 and then Checo and Charles again at the exit of Turn 6.

“I don’t sit in the stewards’ room to deliberate, but their view was, in all three circumstances was that a car’s width should have been left to the edge of the track because the two cars were alongside each other.”

For a long time the inside car has been allowed to push an outside car off if a few unofficial criteria were met:

1. The inside car was ahead when entering the braking zone
2. The inside car makes the turn within the track limits
3. The move was not an abruby jink

Max failed the first 2 criteria in Brazil!

[siskue2005]

[dans79]

https://i.imgur.com/D9TxTSd.jpg

Based on summons it's to get his side of the story for the incident. And to talk about the new evidence.

[toraabe]

Just one wish, but I don't think it would happen. A return to the old layout. How cool would that have been.

Fast oval flat out 40 seconds. And then the infield..

Looks epic!!
Multiple layout options too.

1980 gp. Last on the old layout. Epic

[toraabe]

Just one wish, but I don't think it would happen. A return to the old layout. How cool would that have been.

Fast oval flat out 40 seconds. And then the infield..

Looks epic!!
Multiple layout options too.

1980 gp. Last on the old layout. Epic

I don't think it will take more than a month with new pavement on the unused parts to make it possible to use the old layout again...

[ArcticWolfie]

They just knowingly bottled the call as they didn't want to deal with the fallout of making a potentially championship deciding decision. I think it's as simple as that. (Not to mention completely wrong- shouldn't even enter their thinking) I expect they (stewards/Masi) were all mighty relieved when Hamilton managed to pass cleanly and win the race. Best possible outcome for them.

Mercedes are completely correct to push this further now the footage is available, though. It doesn't seem there was any intention of making the corner. Just to remain ahead at any cost, or to go back to Monza, the 'I'm coming out of this corner ahead or neither of us is coming out of this corner at all.'

You just made a point though... they both have "I'm coming out of this corner ahead or neither of us is coming out of this corner at all"
Hamilton wanted to stay ahead at all costs in Monza and cut Verstappen's (opportunist) move off and resulted in a crash. Hamilton wanted to fix his mistake at Silverstone and ran Verstappen off...
Hamilton didn't even complain after Verstappen's move at Interlagos (at least not the usual ranting). Says enough, they both probably don't care. This is a full on raging battle between 2 title contenders and teams.

The heat will continue to rise till the end... will they crash next race? will someone crash in the wall and take himself out? will a mechanical fault occur. It's been a while since I've been this excited over a season!

[Stu]

The best, closest season between rival teams since 1994? 1999 was reasonably tense, but nothing like this.

[cliffgamerz]

Joylon Palmers insight on it.

[RZS10]

The version of the analysis on F1.com (link) is longer (11:41) ... i did not watch the YT version so i can't comment on what was cut.

p.s.: this is a forum and by the very definition of the word it's a place where things are discussed and ideas exchanged, it's not a feel-good echo chamber where everyone nods and agrees - how anyone can believe that having the content of one's posts questioned, scrutinized or put in the proper context is somehow a sign of a bias of an entire forum or reason enough to throw one's toys out of the pram is beyond me.

[flmkane]

The best, closest season between rival teams since 1994? 1999 was reasonably tense, but nothing like this.

I disagree. 2003, 2007, 2008,2012 were also very close

[Incognito]

I assume you know Ho Pin Tung, a racing driver and F1 analyst, who always gives his unbiased analysis after every race on everything that happened in the race.

9:48 a.m. Nov 17 2021 Ho-Pin Tung

What VER thought was only he knows, so let's not speculate and limit it to facts. I always say: motorsport is physics.
Tire has max grip potential, which you can use in longitudinal direction (braking/acceleration), rotation (steering) or combination thereof ("combined G").

"Ask" too much grip from the tire, then you will block or you will have slip. Both brake here later than usual, have to slow down more to reach the bend. VER brakes later and on the inside line has to make a tighter radius, so slow down even more than HAM. Knowing max potential tire, braking straight ahead is most effective for slowing down ASAP.

That explains why VER sends in relatively little, because at that moment it needs all (more than usual) band potential to slow down. Only when the braking phase is largely over, can it use more potential to rotate, and then also sends a large angle but is already on the edge of the track.

Had he sent in earlier (and more), then blocked LF or lost control, and probably hit HAM in both cases.
That's some speculation I want to do and just give extra info so everyone can make up their own mind.

I don't know why people are dunking on Ho-Pin Tung and, I suspect, not reading what he actually wrote.

Paragraph 1: Tyre grip has a limit
Paragraph 2: If you exceed that limit, bad things happen. Verstappen brakes later than Hamilton, on a tighter radius, and is already going faster. To maximise grip, he would brake in a straight line.
Paragraph 3: Verstappen doesn't try to make the corner, because he knows he's going too fast.
Paragraph 4: Had he turned tighter he'd spin and hit Hamilton.

Does anyone actually disagree with this?

Ho-Pin Tung isn't saying Verstappen didn't divebomb Hamilton and force him off the track. He's saying the opposite of that. Verstappen came in too fast (only Verstappen knows if it was deliberate), couldn't make the turn, so drove off the track with Hamilton trapped on the outside. As intent has no bearing on the rules, Ho-Pin Tung is actually in the Mercedes camp.

He could say exactly the same about Bottas in Hungary. He came in too fast, couldn't brake in time, hit Norris. To say those things isn't to argue Bottas didn't deserve a penalty, it's merely an observation of the facts.

[RZS10]

I don't know why people are dunking on Ho-Pin Tung and, I suspect, not reading what he actually wrote.
[...]
Does anyone actually disagree with this?

Ho-Pin Tung isn't wrong, of course [...]

Hehe.

I believe some 'dunked' on Mr. Tung because of the context his tweets were posted in (translated and put together into one piece of text, here's links 1,2,3,4) , which was a reply to this:

Mercedes are completely correct to push this further now the footage is available, though. It doesn't seem there was any intention of making the corner.

Exactly, just imagine if there was a barrier on the edge of the curb, both cars would have smashed in to the barrier. Now if there really was a barrier there, no way does max make that defensive attemp. Therefore he chose to do what he did, he intended to run Lewis off that wide, he chose to do it. It wasnt a mistake.

It seemed like it was posted as an argument against a possible reopening of the case and i have no idea how his remarks would somehow contradict what was in those posts - only that he wrote that he doesn't want to speculate about Max' intentions, which is just a preface to make sure the reader knows it's speculation about what might have happened based on his knowledge of tyre physics in such a case and not about trying to explain what a racing driver (like himself) would think.

[El Scorchio]

They just knowingly bottled the call as they didn't want to deal with the fallout of making a potentially championship deciding decision. I think it's as simple as that. (Not to mention completely wrong- shouldn't even enter their thinking) I expect they (stewards/Masi) were all mighty relieved when Hamilton managed to pass cleanly and win the race. Best possible outcome for them.

Mercedes are completely correct to push this further now the footage is available, though. It doesn't seem there was any intention of making the corner. Just to remain ahead at any cost, or to go back to Monza, the 'I'm coming out of this corner ahead or neither of us is coming out of this corner at all.'

You just made a point though... they both have "I'm coming out of this corner ahead or neither of us is coming out of this corner at all"
Hamilton wanted to stay ahead at all costs in Monza and cut Verstappen's (opportunist) move off and resulted in a crash. Hamilton wanted to fix his mistake at Silverstone and ran Verstappen off...
Hamilton didn't even complain after Verstappen's move at Interlagos (at least not the usual ranting). Says enough, they both probably don't care. This is a full on raging battle between 2 title contenders and teams.

The heat will continue to rise till the end... will they crash next race? will someone crash in the wall and take himself out? will a mechanical fault occur. It's been a while since I've been this excited over a season!

Interestingly I would apply that to Verstappen rather than Hamilton in Monza. (So yes- and I know some don't agree- I think that one was on Verstappen rather than Hamilton)
But I do think if Hamilton were ahead in the championship instead of Verstappen he'd have a more robust attitude to contact and/or the avoidance of, similar to how Verstappen has been of late.

[Jolle]

I assume you know Ho Pin Tung, a racing driver and F1 analyst, who always gives his unbiased analysis after every race on everything that happened in the race.

9:48 a.m. Nov 17 2021 Ho-Pin Tung

What VER thought was only he knows, so let's not speculate and limit it to facts. I always say: motorsport is physics.
Tire has max grip potential, which you can use in longitudinal direction (braking/acceleration), rotation (steering) or combination thereof ("combined G").

"Ask" too much grip from the tire, then you will block or you will have slip. Both brake here later than usual, have to slow down more to reach the bend. VER brakes later and on the inside line has to make a tighter radius, so slow down even more than HAM. Knowing max potential tire, braking straight ahead is most effective for slowing down ASAP.

That explains why VER sends in relatively little, because at that moment it needs all (more than usual) band potential to slow down. Only when the braking phase is largely over, can it use more potential to rotate, and then also sends a large angle but is already on the edge of the track.

Had he sent in earlier (and more), then blocked LF or lost control, and probably hit HAM in both cases.
That's some speculation I want to do and just give extra info so everyone can make up their own mind.

I don't know why people are dunking on Ho-Pin Tung and, I suspect, not reading what he actually wrote.

Paragraph 1: Tyre grip has a limit
Paragraph 2: If you exceed that limit, bad things happen. Verstappen brakes later than Hamilton, on a tighter radius, and is already going faster. To maximise grip, he would brake in a straight line.
Paragraph 3: Verstappen doesn't try to make the corner, because he knows he's going too fast.
Paragraph 4: Had he turned tighter he'd spin and hit Hamilton.

Does anyone actually disagree with this?

Ho-Pin Tung isn't saying Verstappen didn't divebomb Hamilton and force him off the track. He's saying the opposite of that. Verstappen came in too fast (only Verstappen knows if it was deliberate), couldn't make the turn, so drove off the track with Hamilton trapped on the outside. As intent has no bearing on the rules, Ho-Pin Tung is actually in the Mercedes camp.

He could say exactly the same about Bottas in Hungary. He came in too fast, couldn't brake in time, hit Norris. To say those things isn't to argue Bottas didn't deserve a penalty, it's merely an observation of the facts.

I think one of the differences is not that a driver does have an error in judgment of makes a mistake (by overshooting the corner for instance) but what he does right after. Vettel in Canada is a good example, misses the corner and forcing his way in front. Verstappen did something similar. He made a mistake (the only conclusion when it's not on purpose) and missed the corner. Then, off track, he didn't back off or yielded, no, he put down so much power that he understeered even further out, forcing Hamilton even more off track.

One could also look at this defence tactic of Verstappen as a "if you try to overtake me, I'll take us both out" move.