2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

[Just_a_fan]

Ah ok, thanks. You'd love to think they are independent but still have the same 'parent' - imagine the internal pressure !

It's pretty much like a normal court where the court falls under the branch of the same government, but you can sue said government through that same court. In that way, this makes sense.

That's what's supposed to happen, but there are plenty of countries where the judicial system is directly influenced by the executive, be it the promoting of "friendly" judges or threatening and removing judges who decide in the wrong way.

[Just_a_fan]

Toto needs a vacation I think. Congratulates Max with the championship while at the same time deploys legal action to take it away from him. It is one or the other...

They're not doing it to strip Max of his title, they're doing it to get rid of Masi. I think we should all applaud that as the man is not fit for purpose - his application of the rules has been so hit and miss over the last two years that even the drivers not involved in the title fight don't like him.

While I agree on the poor implementation this year, I do wonder how much of a difference getting rid of Masi is going to make. The main issue is that the rules are vague and do not cover many situations. As soon as the underlying problem is not fixed, ambiguity remains.

No doubt changes to the rules will be included in any deal made. The safety car rules are already pretty straight forward - unlap all cars or no cars - but even that seems to have gone wrong. And that's why there is ire towards Masi and the FIA in some camps.

[Tizz]

Toto needs a vacation I think. Congratulates Max with the championship while at the same time deploys legal action to take it away from him. It is one or the other...

They're not doing it to strip Max of his title, they're doing it to get rid of Masi. I think we should all applaud that as the man is not fit for purpose - his application of the rules has been so hit and miss over the last two years that even the drivers not involved in the title fight don't like him.

If we try and leave the emotions of sunday out of it, I think he has an unworkable situation. With every incident he has at least 2 teambosses shouting in his ear preventing him from doing his job. Brawn already stated that they will change that next season. Apart from that, a lot of the inconsistancy is to be blamed on the stewards I think. For me it is hard to understand how somebody with little racing experience can judge extremely capable drivers like Hammi and Max. It is like the biggest names in the NHL or NBA. They have a logic of their own on what is right and what not and if you never operated on that level you simply don't understand. Put Raikonen in a seat and he'll know instinctively and immediately the proper cause of action.

[Tom145145]

Toto needs a vacation I think. Congratulates Max with the championship while at the same time deploys legal action to take it away from him. It is one or the other...

They're not doing it to strip Max of his title, they're doing it to get rid of Masi. I think we should all applaud that as the man is not fit for purpose - his application of the rules has been so hit and miss over the last two years that even the drivers not involved in the title fight don't like him.

While I agree on the poor implementation this year, I do wonder how much of a difference getting rid of Masi is going to make. The main issue is that the rules are vague and do not cover many situations. As soon as the underlying problem is not fixed, ambiguity remains.

Having vague rules and interpretation has and will always be a part of F1, it’s a dynamic sport where you can’t have a rule for every situation. That’s part of why I love it. What happened in the last race was completely different, the safety car use has always been well understood and ridged in its use, especially the withdrawal of the safety car. This is demonstrated with Masi’s own words last year.

[Just_a_fan]

Toto needs a vacation I think. Congratulates Max with the championship while at the same time deploys legal action to take it away from him. It is one or the other...

They're not doing it to strip Max of his title, they're doing it to get rid of Masi. I think we should all applaud that as the man is not fit for purpose - his application of the rules has been so hit and miss over the last two years that even the drivers not involved in the title fight don't like him.

If we try and leave the emotions of sunday out of it, I think he has an unworkable situation. With every incident he has at least 2 teambosses shouting in his ear preventing him from doing his job. Brawn already stated that they will change that next season. Apart from that, a lot of the inconsistancy is to be blamed on the stewards I think. For me it is hard to understand how somebody with little racing experience can judge extremely capable drivers like Hammi and Max. It is like the biggest names in the NHL or NBA. They have a logic of their own on what is right and what not and if you never operated on that level you simply don't understand. Put Raikonen in a seat and he'll know instinctively and immediately the proper cause of action.

That's all great, but the point is that it wasn't an unworkable situation at all - he has the rules that say either unlap all cars or unlap no cars. All he has to decide is which of those two to do. What he did was unlap some cars and tried to orchestrate a "race" in the last lap. It's not his job to do that. His job is to ensure the race runs under the rules written by the governing body and which all of the teams expect to play by. He stated that the teams don't like races finishing behind the safety car - fine, don't unlap the cars and the races finishes as a race for the final lap or two. It would have been the same "it's a motor race, Toto" but not one that looks to the outside world as an underhand piece of chicanery. His decision has made F1 look ridiculous in the eyes of many that aren't fans of the sport, let alone many of those that are fans of the sport.

[MattWellsyWells]

With people saying that this is just racing and luck swings either way during a season and decisions go for you and against you over a season so this latest incident doesn't matter - I agree with that in part because you do win a championship over the whole season. But this feels different to me because a decision was made that had only one realistic outcome. And everyone knew what the outcome was going to be and how it would decide who becomes champion. If this had happened at a race mid-season, we'd probably have the same kind of arguments but there would be no way of knowing if it would actually have changed the outcome of the championship at the end of the season. That's what really annoys me about what happened because we could all see how this decision was going to change who won the championship.

I also think if this had happened mid-season race control wouldn't have compromised the rules to ensure a restart. So, if all races are equal, why should this race be treated differently? That is just speculation of course.

[Ryar]

Toto needs a vacation I think. Congratulates Max with the championship while at the same time deploys legal action to take it away from him. It is one or the other...

They're not doing it to strip Max of his title, they're doing it to get rid of Masi. I think we should all applaud that as the man is not fit for purpose - his application of the rules has been so hit and miss over the last two years that even the drivers not involved in the title fight don't like him.

If we try and leave the emotions of sunday out of it, I think he has an unworkable situation. With every incident he has at least 2 teambosses shouting in his ear preventing him from doing his job. Brawn already stated that they will change that next season. Apart from that, a lot of the inconsistancy is to be blamed on the stewards I think. For me it is hard to understand how somebody with little racing experience can judge extremely capable drivers like Hammi and Max. It is like the biggest names in the NHL or NBA. They have a logic of their own on what is right and what not and if you never operated on that level you simply don't understand. Put Raikonen in a seat and he'll know instinctively and immediately the proper cause of action.

Without due to considration for the job that needs to be done under duress, people can shout for the head of the man incharge. It's easy to do, when an individual has zero experience of being in such situations. This is no different than media and people in Italy that keeps calling for heads from Ferrari and they kept doing it. It has become a norm for some. There will always be tricky situations where a decision maker cannot get it 100% right, which people sitting on couch think, it's as easy as watching Youtube videos in slow motion. Masi hasn't got everything right, but I don't think another person will either. With that experience, one can expect him to be in better situation to manager similar situations, than to put another Cat in the water and then when that struggles, shout for it's head.

[bonjon1979]

If the lapped cars had been left there then I think Max might still have done it, they would all have jumped out the way on the start finish straight and he was 4 seconds a lap quicker than hamilton. But at least it would've been a race. 40 lap old hard tyres that have had a chance to cool down versus almost brand new softs not long out of the blankets is just not a contest.

[Tizz]

They're not doing it to strip Max of his title, they're doing it to get rid of Masi. I think we should all applaud that as the man is not fit for purpose - his application of the rules has been so hit and miss over the last two years that even the drivers not involved in the title fight don't like him.

If we try and leave the emotions of sunday out of it, I think he has an unworkable situation. With every incident he has at least 2 teambosses shouting in his ear preventing him from doing his job. Brawn already stated that they will change that next season. Apart from that, a lot of the inconsistancy is to be blamed on the stewards I think. For me it is hard to understand how somebody with little racing experience can judge extremely capable drivers like Hammi and Max. It is like the biggest names in the NHL or NBA. They have a logic of their own on what is right and what not and if you never operated on that level you simply don't understand. Put Raikonen in a seat and he'll know instinctively and immediately the proper cause of action.

That's all great, but the point is that it wasn't an unworkable situation at all - he has the rules that say either unlap all cars or unlap no cars. All he has to decide is which of those two to do. What he did was unlap some cars and tried to orchestrate a "race" in the last lap. It's not his job to do that. His job is to ensure the race runs under the rules written by the governing body and which all of the teams expect to play by. He stated that the teams don't like races finishing behind the safety car - fine, don't unlap the cars and the races finishes as a race for the final lap or two. It would have been the same "it's a motor race, Toto" but not one that looks to the outside world as an underhand piece of chicanery. His decision has made F1 look ridiculous in the eyes of many that aren't fans of the sport, let alone many of those that are fans of the sport.

I beg to differ. Both Toto and Horner (or Wheatley) where shouting in his ear. In fact, they were already shouting before any incident happened. That is crazy. It is not allowed in any other sport for very good reasons. Besides that, your point was if I understood correctly that he has proven unfit all season. You cannot extrapolate the SC-situation as representative for the whole season.

[Just_a_fan]

If we try and leave the emotions of sunday out of it, I think he has an unworkable situation. With every incident he has at least 2 teambosses shouting in his ear preventing him from doing his job. Brawn already stated that they will change that next season. Apart from that, a lot of the inconsistancy is to be blamed on the stewards I think. For me it is hard to understand how somebody with little racing experience can judge extremely capable drivers like Hammi and Max. It is like the biggest names in the NHL or NBA. They have a logic of their own on what is right and what not and if you never operated on that level you simply don't understand. Put Raikonen in a seat and he'll know instinctively and immediately the proper cause of action.

That's all great, but the point is that it wasn't an unworkable situation at all - he has the rules that say either unlap all cars or unlap no cars. All he has to decide is which of those two to do. What he did was unlap some cars and tried to orchestrate a "race" in the last lap. It's not his job to do that. His job is to ensure the race runs under the rules written by the governing body and which all of the teams expect to play by. He stated that the teams don't like races finishing behind the safety car - fine, don't unlap the cars and the races finishes as a race for the final lap or two. It would have been the same "it's a motor race, Toto" but not one that looks to the outside world as an underhand piece of chicanery. His decision has made F1 look ridiculous in the eyes of many that aren't fans of the sport, let alone many of those that are fans of the sport.

I beg to differ. Both Toto and Horner (or Wheatley) where shouting in his ear. In fact, they were already shouting before any incident happened. That is crazy. It is not allowed in any other sport for very good reasons. Besides that, your point was if I understood correctly that he has proven unfit all season. You cannot extrapolate the SC-situation as representative for the whole season.

I agree that having the team shouting in his ear is wrong. Shouldn't happen.

He has made a number of calls that have made teams unhappy both this year and last year. Think about the big shunt after the safety car last year - that was specifically down to him making a call about safety car procedure.

[DChemTech]

I beg to differ. Both Toto and Horner (or Wheatley) where shouting in his ear. In fact, they were already shouting before any incident happened. That is crazy. It is not allowed in any other sport for very good reasons. Besides that, your point was if I understood correctly that he has proven unfit all season. You cannot extrapolate the SC-situation as representative for the whole season.

True. The "No SC please" from Toto during the VSC - when there was absolutely no reason to expect any SC - was completely uncalled for. Shows the state of things.

[Tizz]

That's all great, but the point is that it wasn't an unworkable situation at all - he has the rules that say either unlap all cars or unlap no cars. All he has to decide is which of those two to do. What he did was unlap some cars and tried to orchestrate a "race" in the last lap. It's not his job to do that. His job is to ensure the race runs under the rules written by the governing body and which all of the teams expect to play by. He stated that the teams don't like races finishing behind the safety car - fine, don't unlap the cars and the races finishes as a race for the final lap or two. It would have been the same "it's a motor race, Toto" but not one that looks to the outside world as an underhand piece of chicanery. His decision has made F1 look ridiculous in the eyes of many that aren't fans of the sport, let alone many of those that are fans of the sport.

I beg to differ. Both Toto and Horner (or Wheatley) where shouting in his ear. In fact, they were already shouting before any incident happened. That is crazy. It is not allowed in any other sport for very good reasons. Besides that, your point was if I understood correctly that he has proven unfit all season. You cannot extrapolate the SC-situation as representative for the whole season.

I agree that having the team shouting in his ear is wrong. Shouldn't happen.

He has made a number of calls that have made teams unhappy both this year and last year. Think about the big shunt after the safety car last year - that was specifically down to him making a call about safety car procedure.

Yes, I agree, the inconsistent decisions are annoying, even for me not having very much knowledge about racing or the rules. And a bunch of them is surely Masi's responsibility. But throwing him out will not solve anything. There are some very fundamental questions to be answered and those questions became apparent now with the intense fight between Hammi and Max. Do you want to have a rulebook covering every thinkable situation or do you create a racing management consisting of knowledgeable people that you need to trust and accept even if the outcome of their decision is unfavourable for you ? In that regard it is a pity that Brawn and Todt are stepping down next year.

[adrianjordan]

Is there a thread somewhere for the end of season test?

Makes sense to keep it separate from this thread for obvious reasons!!

[f1jcw]

I beg to differ. Both Toto and Horner (or Wheatley) where shouting in his ear. In fact, they were already shouting before any incident happened. That is crazy. It is not allowed in any other sport for very good reasons. Besides that, your point was if I understood correctly that he has proven unfit all season. You cannot extrapolate the SC-situation as representative for the whole season.

I agree that having the team shouting in his ear is wrong. Shouldn't happen.

He has made a number of calls that have made teams unhappy both this year and last year. Think about the big shunt after the safety car last year - that was specifically down to him making a call about safety car procedure.

Yes, I agree, the inconsistent decisions are annoying, even for me not having very much knowledge about racing or the rules. And a bunch of them is surely Masi's responsibility. But throwing him out will not solve anything. There are some very fundamental questions to be answered and those questions became apparent now with the intense fight between Hammi and Max. Do you want to have a rulebook covering every thinkable situation or do you create a racing management consisting of knowledgeable people that you need to trust and accept even if the outcome of their decision is unfavourable for you ? In that regard it is a pity that Brawn and Todt are stepping down next year.

Sorry, you can not create rules up on the fly as the teams need to come up with stategy against those rules, they also need to know when being pushed off the track is a penalty or not.

If you are going to govern by making rules up whenever then F1 is not worth following, you don't have a sport you have a sitation that the race control decides the WDC on popularity, is nolonger a sport but love island.

[Roo]

a question: wasn't it RB who pressured Masi to let those lapped cars through for MV? just saying, if that is true, are RB and therefore MV culpable?