2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

[outer_bongolia]

And they should retroactively give Lewis a 3s time penalty for gaining the track and leaving an advantage 29x in Bahrain, which (in the terminology used here - not my choice) 'handed' him the win, and we can probably think of a few more things. Just go through the whole season again and revise all decisions that potentially impacted the outcome of the championship?

Merc is trying to decide whether or not to launch an appeal to the results of this race. It has bad implications whatever they do. What I proposed is addressing the issue the last laps of this one race created.

The issues of all of this season would fill a library and we would get old talking about them.

[jz11]

But then how would some argue Lewis fought hard against his team mate, which was fundamental for the fight of establishing his reputation here. Mercedes wanted the No. 2 driver, but were not willing to be open about it. They kept mooting the equal treatment sham, but kept using Bottas as a prop, albeit an ineffective one. Bottas was under the false impression that he can fight, but in reality he wasn't allowed to. Nobody seems to have clearly explained his role to him, which is why he behaved as he did. No fault of his. Just the lack of clear goal setting.

my thoughts exactly, and it also ruins drivers confidence when he is told everything is equal, and you still are consistently behind, in the back of your mind you know where the problem is, but everyone around you is telling the opposite, and if you don't have the confidence - you can't get everything and a bit more out of the car, like Max almost did at Jeddah quali - this is what also gives Lewis the confidence he has, just look back at the loss to Rosberg how he looked (I was rooting for him that year btw, 100%)

Webber and Vettel (2 times actually) are other examples of this, and also Kimi - the opposite (same as Perez), he knew exactly why he was there, that on top of his general constitution, Alonso nowdays I think has a similar mindset

[kenshi_blind]

And they should retroactively give Lewis a 3s time penalty for gaining the track and leaving an advantage 29x in Bahrain, which (in the terminology used here - not my choice) 'handed' him the win, and we can probably think of a few more things. Just go through the whole season again and revise all decisions that potentially impacted the outcome of the championship?

Merc is trying to decide whether or not to launch an appeal to the results of this race. It has bad implications whatever they do. What I proposed is addressing the issue the last laps of this one race created.

The issues of all of this season would fill a library and we would get old talking about them.

The result has already caused irreparable damage though.At this point I hope Mercedes goes for it if anything for the FIA to get his --- together .

[holeindalip]

Just out of curiosity where were the lapped cars that got freed to pass at on track when they resumed racing? Norris was just entering turn three when Hamilton took off. They didn’t even get the chance to catch the back of the pack which is why there’s the rule for safety car in the following lap so they get to catch back up and que in place. The only driver that had a fair chance (or an advantage) was verstappen. No driver from behind and fresh softs to beat 40 lap old tires.

[Rodak]

underfueling would make more sense, though Perez would be aware of that, but he sounded quite surprised when was told about having to retire the car, but if he was so obviously underfueled, I'd expect more pace from him, he was dropping off at more or less usual rate as far as I remember, but yeah, that would be Flavio game level

Oh come on. If they were going to run the car light they would have run it light. Perez came in with three laps to go; only an idiot would 'underfuel' a car so that it almost ran out with three laps to go as the weight advantage would have been so small....

[timorous]

Then you should exclude the results for Spa since a race never took place…

And they should retroactively give Lewis a 3s time penalty for gaining the track and leaving an advantage 29x in Bahrain, which (in the terminology used here - not my choice) 'handed' him the win, and we can probably think of a few more things. Just go through the whole season again and revise all decisions that potentially impacted the outcome of the championship?

It's separate to Max's overtake off track - a rule which even Masi didn't try to alter this season - which was always considered illegal.

Kimi on Alonso in COTA?

[Stu]

I think it would be a very see through tactic- particularly in light of Piquet jr and Alonso for Renault, and generally something that's just frowned upon out of principle by the teams- particularly because of the safety aspect of such things. I cannot see a team ever stooping so low.

I thought that it would be funny to see the faces at RedBull on lap 57 if Bottas parked it at the track with a mechanical "issue" and force the SC to stay out. I would honestly do that if i was Mercedes because it was clear what was about to happen.

Can you imagine!? Although I'm pretty glad they didn't. That would have been the height of cynicism!

Toto as the new Briatore, and Bottas as welcome in the paddock as Nelson Piquet Jnr…

[Stu]

So many posters do not seem to get that this is not about Lewis v Max or Horner V Woolf, and it does not matter who was leading and who was 5 cars back, or what happened during the season.
The whole nub of this is that a race and championship was decided on the whim of an official who had written rules and procedures and he decided to ignore them for a lap of TV excitement.

We all know Merc is not going to get anywhere and now way is the race or championship going to be changed but the procedure has to be.
This time it was RBR and Max gaining at the expense of Merc and Lewis, if it happens again to could equally well be Mclaren and Ferrari in those roles, or any other team.

The only possible outcome is Massi will be 'promoted' to a different job and a new set of procedures and rules will be introduced for next year on.

Please understand this is not a driver and team v another driver and team this is fundamental to the fairness of sport for the future.

Agreed with this isnt about Lewis vs Max, Horner vs Wolf, Red Bull vs Mercedes.
However it is also not about excitement. Its about the essence of sport. The problem with a sport like this and f.i. football as well, is that you can not fit every situation into regulations, there are too many variables. So you always have to take the rules with a minor component of interpretation of why the rules are the way they are.

Like in football, a match takes 90 minutes. Except after 90 minutes they continue with a set extra time to compensate for the number of player substitutions and injury treatments that happened during a match.
Except then the referee has the option to continue the match even longer if during those few minutes there was a delay. Now if a deciding goal is scored in the 5th minute of 4 minutes of extra time, that totally sucks for the losing party, but its all in the game. The extra time added is often incorrect and an interpretation of the referee and his assistant.

Similarly in a situation as this one, one has to consider the necessity of following the exact safety car protocol vs the wish of all fans and teams to not finish any race under safety car conditions, whether it is the final championship decider or the 4th race of the season.
So there are the following considerations in any race where a safety car is needed in the final 10% of the race:
1) No one wants to finish any race under safety car conditions, if it is safe to do so. (has been previously discussed and agreed by teams). It is a race not a parade. (Teams know this and should consider that in their strategy choice.)
2) We have a safety car situation near the end of the race, can we safely get the safety car situation ended and get 1 or more laps of racing.
3) What is the normal safety car protocol, what is the goal of the various provisions of that protocol and is it necessary to follow through considering the agreed goal of not finishing races under safety car conditions.

So: Lapped cars are let through so they do not interfere with the race leaders during race restart.
The safety car stays on the track for 1 additional lap to allow these lapped cars to create a gap so they wont interfere with the race leaders within like 10 laps after the restart.

We can conclude, as race control did:
1) The track was safe in time for 1 final lap of green flag racing.
2) Considering there was only 1 more lap possible, driving another lap behind the safety cars is wasted time, since lapped cars do not need to create a bigger margin than 10 seconds. Therefore the standard additional lap of Safety Car can be scrapped. This provision is required when there is half a race left, but obsolete in the closing stages of the race.
3) The only lapped cars interfering with the race win were the cars between Hamilton and Verstappen, most other cars will not have a chance for the race win in one lap. To save time no other cars need to be unlapped. (One could argue that the cars between Verstappen and Sainz should have been unlapped as well)

Its super unfortunate for Hamilton, super lucky for Verstappen, but it is also a fair decision under the circumstances and agreed principle of trying to not finish race under safety car conditions, choosing the spirit of the sport over strictly following regulations, similar f.i. to how Hamilton was not ordered to surrender his place in lap 1, because maybe Verstappens pass was slightly too agressive, while it was very clear that Hamilton gained a significant advantage by leaving the track.
Anyway considering Silverstone and Hungary and considering Verstappen leads Hamilton in poles, podiums, laps led and wins, probably the slightly faster driver/car combo across the season won.
Mercedes/Hamilton did not lose the championship in Abu Dhabi, they lost it in Monaco, Baku and Hungary.

It’s pretty naive to think that not unlapping the other cars wouldn’t have had an effect on the outcome.Hell sainz could’ve locked up going into turn one and took Max out, nobody knows. Red Bull arguing that along with yourself is total nonsense. Along with Mercedes’ lost it earlier in the season Max also lost it in Brazil as he should’ve been reprimanded harshly and in SA he should’ve been DQ’ed. its a shame people arguing the better driver won…. Not from my eyes, I saw 19 other cleaner drivers than verstappen on track this year.

If MV had brakes in the normal spot in SA, VB would have been into the back of him at the first corner…

[kenshi_blind]

Wow. Most of these posts now are just salty HAM fans. I get it. I’m also not happy with the handling but the stewards have decided that the race director stayed within his remit. Now the FIA will investigate the FIA. Nothing will come from that other than a face saving exercise. What I do genuinely hope though is that they’re going to make a good step for next year and sort their own house out. This year has uncovered a plethora of inconsistencies and farcical situations which have pissed literally everyone off regardless of who you support. (Besides the casual fan base, of which they attracted 10s of millions, no question).

You can argue your stuff until you’re blue in the face. Max fans have over the season when they felt totally robbed and vice versa.

HAM seems to have accepted his fate. And I have HUGE respect and admiration for how he handled himself sunday. Also his dad is a total class act. Wasn’t a fan but I can admire his on track skill and clearly good morals.

The stewards were never going to say otherwise and even then they admitted the rule was never properly applied .
On top of that the way they interpreted the rule is wrong.the race director has authority over the clerck and when to call or discard the safety car ...not that nonsense he came up with
Today you say Hamilton's fans are salty, the sake thing will happen to your favourite driver
or team and you'll be here saying otherwise. If formula one is to become WWE style of show , I want no part in it.

[timorous]

Wow. Most of these posts now are just salty HAM fans. I get it. I’m also not happy with the handling but the stewards have decided that the race director stayed within his remit. Now the FIA will investigate the FIA. Nothing will come from that other than a face saving exercise. What I do genuinely hope though is that they’re going to make a good step for next year and sort their own house out. This year has uncovered a plethora of inconsistencies and farcical situations which have pissed literally everyone off regardless of who you support. (Besides the casual fan base, of which they attracted 10s of millions, no question).

You can argue your stuff until you’re blue in the face. Max fans have over the season when they felt totally robbed and vice versa.

HAM seems to have accepted his fate. And I have HUGE respect and admiration for how he handled himself sunday. Also his dad is a total class act. Wasn’t a fan but I can admire his on track skill and clearly good morals.

We investigated ourselves and find ourselves innocent.

Really? What a surprise.

[101FlyingDutchman]

Wow. Most of these posts now are just salty HAM fans. I get it. I’m also not happy with the handling but the stewards have decided that the race director stayed within his remit. Now the FIA will investigate the FIA. Nothing will come from that other than a face saving exercise. What I do genuinely hope though is that they’re going to make a good step for next year and sort their own house out. This year has uncovered a plethora of inconsistencies and farcical situations which have pissed literally everyone off regardless of who you support. (Besides the casual fan base, of which they attracted 10s of millions, no question).

You can argue your stuff until you’re blue in the face. Max fans have over the season when they felt totally robbed and vice versa.

HAM seems to have accepted his fate. And I have HUGE respect and admiration for how he handled himself sunday. Also his dad is a total class act. Wasn’t a fan but I can admire his on track skill and clearly good morals.

The stewards were never going to say otherwise and even then they admitted the rule was never properly applied .
On top of that the way they interpreted the rule is wrong.the race director has authority over the clerck and when to call or discard the safety car ...not that nonsense he came up with
Today you say Hamilton's fans are salty, the sake thing will happen to your favourite driver
or team and you'll be here saying otherwise. If formula one is to become WWE style of show , I want no part in it.

Your prerogative of course! And I MAY well do the same. Hence me saying that it needs sorting but a court of arbitration won’t do any of that. All the actual race stakeholders need to get together with the FIA and demand a cleaning of the house. (And I don’t mean personnel necessarily) the current setup is not fit for purpose,
- there is no consistency on overtaking rules or coming togethers
- penalties are far too arbitrary or take too long to resolve
- loads of race tracks have not sufficient deterrent
- race director being leant on by teams on open radio is bang out of order

[pantherxxx]

Wow. Most of these posts now are just salty HAM fans. I get it. I’m also not happy with the handling but the stewards have decided that the race director stayed within his remit. Now the FIA will investigate the FIA. Nothing will come from that other than a face saving exercise. What I do genuinely hope though is that they’re going to make a good step for next year and sort their own house out. This year has uncovered a plethora of inconsistencies and farcical situations which have pissed literally everyone off regardless of who you support. (Besides the casual fan base, of which they attracted 10s of millions, no question).

You can argue your stuff until you’re blue in the face. Max fans have over the season when they felt totally robbed and vice versa.

HAM seems to have accepted his fate. And I have HUGE respect and admiration for how he handled himself sunday. Also his dad is a total class act. Wasn’t a fan but I can admire his on track skill and clearly good morals.

The stewards were never going to say otherwise and even then they admitted the rule was never properly applied .
On top of that the way they interpreted the rule is wrong.the race director has authority over the clerck and when to call or discard the safety car ...not that nonsense he came up with
Today you say Hamilton's fans are salty, the sake thing will happen to your favourite driver
or team and you'll be here saying otherwise. If formula one is to become WWE style of show , I want no part in it.

How do you know they interpreted the rule wrongly? What if you interpreted it wrongly?
This whole thing about the safety car in next lap is in rule 48.12. But that's irrelevant because the "lapped cars may now overtake" message was never shown, so 48.12 doesn't apply. As unfair as it may seem, Masi technically didn't break any rules with regards to only letting a few cars unlap themselves, and not waiting an extra lap to bring in the SC.

[kenshi_blind]

Wow. Most of these posts now are just salty HAM fans. I get it. I’m also not happy with the handling but the stewards have decided that the race director stayed within his remit. Now the FIA will investigate the FIA. Nothing will come from that other than a face saving exercise. What I do genuinely hope though is that they’re going to make a good step for next year and sort their own house out. This year has uncovered a plethora of inconsistencies and farcical situations which have pissed literally everyone off regardless of who you support. (Besides the casual fan base, of which they attracted 10s of millions, no question).

You can argue your stuff until you’re blue in the face. Max fans have over the season when they felt totally robbed and vice versa.

HAM seems to have accepted his fate. And I have HUGE respect and admiration for how he handled himself sunday. Also his dad is a total class act. Wasn’t a fan but I can admire his on track skill and clearly good morals.

The stewards were never going to say otherwise and even then they admitted the rule was never properly applied .
On top of that the way they interpreted the rule is wrong.the race director has authority over the clerck and when to call or discard the safety car ...not that nonsense he came up with
Today you say Hamilton's fans are salty, the sake thing will happen to your favourite driver
or team and you'll be here saying otherwise. If formula one is to become WWE style of show , I want no part in it.

Your prerogative of course! And I MAY well do the same. Hence me saying that it needs sorting but a court of arbitration won’t do any of that. All the actual race stakeholders need to get together with the FIA and demand a cleaning of the house. (And I don’t mean personnel necessarily) the current setup is not fit for purpose,
- there is no consistency on overtaking rules or coming togethers
- penalties are far too arbitrary or take too long to resolve
- loads of race tracks have not sufficient deterrent
- race director being leant on by teams on open radio is bang out of order

I agree with all the point you listed but I'll add that there's a need of new personnel.
1. the stewards (hire some professional stewards, pay them and hold them accountable if need be ),
2. A new the race director, Charlie had his flaws but my lord Masi is out of his depth.
3. The Marshall (they have to get paid )

[Marty_Y]

https://www.racefans.net/2021/12/14/mer ... gp-lawyer/

Mercedes have “good legal basis” for appeal over Abu Dhabi GP – lawyer
2021 F1 seasonPosted on
14th December 2021, 18:15 | Written by Keith Collantine

[holeindalip]

Wow. Most of these posts now are just salty HAM fans. I get it. I’m also not happy with the handling but the stewards have decided that the race director stayed within his remit. Now the FIA will investigate the FIA. Nothing will come from that other than a face saving exercise. What I do genuinely hope though is that they’re going to make a good step for next year and sort their own house out. This year has uncovered a plethora of inconsistencies and farcical situations which have pissed literally everyone off regardless of who you support. (Besides the casual fan base, of which they attracted 10s of millions, no question).

You can argue your stuff until you’re blue in the face. Max fans have over the season when they felt totally robbed and vice versa.

HAM seems to have accepted his fate. And I have HUGE respect and admiration for how he handled himself sunday. Also his dad is a total class act. Wasn’t a fan but I can admire his on track skill and clearly good morals.

The stewards were never going to say otherwise and even then they admitted the rule was never properly applied .
On top of that the way they interpreted the rule is wrong.the race director has authority over the clerck and when to call or discard the safety car ...not that nonsense he came up with
Today you say Hamilton's fans are salty, the sake thing will happen to your favourite driver
or team and you'll be here saying otherwise. If formula one is to become WWE style of show , I want no part in it.

How do you know they interpreted the rule wrongly? What if you interpreted it wrongly?
This whole thing about the safety car in next lap is in rule 48.12. But that's irrelevant because the "lapped cars may now overtake" message was never shown, so 48.12 doesn't apply. As unfair as it may seem, Masi technically didn't break any rules with regards to only letting a few cars unlap themselves, and not waiting an extra lap to bring in the SC.

The message was displayed on the world feed through ESPN, so rule 48.12 does apply. As I’ve said the lapped cars that did go around Norris was just entering turn 3 and vettel was still entering turn one when Hamilton took off for green flag conditions