2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

[AeroDynamic]

There will never be an asterisks next to Max's 2021 title ever because he did absolutely nothing wrong or illegal or questionable. Max made a clean pass and Hamilton failed to keep Max behind. Simple as that. Lewis and Bono knew what the situation was. It was a fitting end to a controversial season, where Max and RedBull Honda ended Lewis and Mercedes dominance. That is how it will be remembered!

No, but that's not the point is it? the Race director did something wrong more than once, and they were crucial in making Max Champion. So yes, I'm afraid it is going to come up (asterisks) when people discuss the season. People still bring up the fact that Prost outscored Senna in 88 and that is not even controversial

[AeroDynamic]

Why? Because Hamilton fans wants him to? Any man with integrity would fight out when he believes he did nothing wrong, unless forces beyond his control throw him out without giving a fair trial. Resigning means two things. Guilty and/or caving into bullying.

I'd be very surprised if he isn't punished in some way. I think the range of what will happen is still very large (anything from just a dilution of powers between him and one or more people. To flat out let go).

I think Merc is pushing for Masi's dismissal. It would be the equivalent to the FIA admitting that Hamilton won last year.

Are Merc pushing for his dismissal? Or do they just want sole power over these events removed from a single person with no restrictions?

The blame is falling on Massi but I think most can see that although it was due to his decisions something was not right in the system.

It's both. The FIA rules are good on the technical side but when it comes to the racing rules they are not clarified enough. They leave room for interpretation for so long and little has changed.

Despite that part of the problem. You also have the structure. Many people over the years have suggested the ideal thing would be to have a 'race room' HQ that supports the local stewards with decision making and rule references at each event, to encourage consistency. That part of the structure is weak.

Masi operating by himself proved to be naive and he simply doesn't have the character to cope with lobbying, he caves in and pleases people. The way he behaved in Abu Dhabi is a joke. So the race control structure wasn't strong enough and that needs improving so we have a robust degree of leadership, and control that isn't susceptible to lobbying. There should be buffer personnel to the teams and the teams should be strictly prohibited from inferring or suggesting how to make decisions or what decision to make. They should only be able to query if an incident is noted or report it, or report what they perceive to be an overlook of the rules; citing rules.

RBR's race director was telling Masi what to do in Abu Dhabi.

Last but not least, is Masi himself. he exposed why the rules were vulnerable and compounded their weaknesses and the problem with them. His judgement is awful in the role and the fact remains, his judgements and decision making is his responsibility, he actually deviated from the rules or made decisions that served as a catalyst for the FIA and teams to establish new rules to prevent that happening in future. that is a failure on his part. The FIA are having to clarify and establish new rules because of their own employee now. And that should not happen. Keeping Masi on and using rules to protect his incompetence is not sensible. I can understand they would keep him on because they cannot find a replacement (yet) but in general, he is a liability and they may just end up writing more new rules and cleaning up more Masi mess in the future.

The solution is to move masi into a accompanying role, mostly track safety delegate and so on, and to make rule and structural changes to race control and stewarding/ race officiating.

[Big Tea]

I'd be very surprised if he isn't punished in some way. I think the range of what will happen is still very large (anything from just a dilution of powers between him and one or more people. To flat out let go).

I think Merc is pushing for Masi's dismissal. It would be the equivalent to the FIA admitting that Hamilton won last year.

Are Merc pushing for his dismissal? Or do they just want sole power over these events removed from a single person with no restrictions?

The blame is falling on Massi but I think most can see that although it was due to his decisions something was not right in the system.

It's both. The FIA rules are good on the technical side but when it comes to the racing rules they are not clarified enough. They leave room for interpretation for so long and little has changed.

Despite that part of the problem. You also have the structure. Many people over the years have suggested the ideal thing would be to have a 'race room' HQ that supports the local stewards with decision making and rule references at each event, to encourage consistency. That part of the structure is weak.

Masi operating by himself proved to be naive and he simply doesn't have the character to cope with lobbying, he caves in and pleases people. The way he behaved in Abu Dhabi is a joke. So the race control structure wasn't strong enough and that needs improving so we have a robust degree of leadership, and control that isn't susceptible to lobbying. There should be buffer personnel to the teams and the teams should be strictly prohibited from inferring or suggesting how to make decisions or what decision to make. They should only be able to query if an incident is noted or report it, or report what they perceive to be an overlook of the rules; citing rules.

RBR's race director was telling Masi what to do in Abu Dhabi.

Last but not least, is Masi himself. he exposed why the rules were vulnerable and compounded their weaknesses and the problem with them. His judgement is awful in the role and the fact remains, his judgements and decision making is his responsibility, he actually deviated from the rules or made decisions that served as a catalyst for the FIA and teams to establish no rules to prevent that happening in future. that is a failure on his part.

The solution is to move masi into a accompanying role, mostly track safety delegate and so on, and to make rule and structural changes to race control and stewarding/ race officiating.

But he still knows more than any one else about the job he was doing. Yes he made mistakes, but he was more or less working alone and if he had someone to discuss or advise he may not have made that decision at that time, especially as he was (in the last case ) guided down what could be seen as a sensible path in some circumstances.

Anyone replacing him will have to go through the same learning experience he did and is probably as likely to make mistakes.

What I am getting at is that it is not HIM that needs fixing its the system he was driving. There is an adage 'better the devil you know', which I see as sensible here as we, and Massi know what went wrong, someone else may not.

Drivers have an engineer and strategist, stewards have a team and no doubt a legal advisor, but one of the most important positions in the race is a one man show. It would be a shame to lose the only person who has experience of the role.

Edit, not defending what he did, I just think it was not malicious or callous, just ill conceived. If he had a team or even a fixed menu of options, I doubt he would have done as he did, but as we all know " it seemed like a good idea at the time "

[AeroDynamic]

That's why I don't think he should be removed from working in the race room. He has a wealth of experience and know how, and as I said, I think he did a competent job in other areas.

Do I want to see a RD getting schooled like he did in Spa? no. So he's not a master of the rules.

Does that mean he needs to stay in authority in race control? no. Why should he? psychologically, he is incompetent in the role. A competent race director with Masi assisting with knowledge and covering the areas where he does a solid job, with a new structure and greater race steward support from a central support hub from the FIA, would in my opinion be the most robust way forward.

[morefirejules08]

I think people should try and objectively ask themselves would they still have the same opinion if the roles had been reversed?
personally as a fan of the sport rather than a particular team or driver, I like many others without a vested interest found the whole situation unsatisfactory, yes we got an exciting few corners on the last lap but it did feel like it was manufactured for the show.

If you listen to those who have little or no interest in F1 and watched the race in a way a non-football fan watches the world cup final I think you'll find that is the overwhelming sentiment.

[Big Tea]

I think people should try and objectively ask themselves would they still have the same opinion if the roles had been reversed?
personally as a fan of the sport rather than a particular team or driver, I like many others without a vested interest found the whole situation unsatisfactory, yes we got an exciting few corners on the last lap but it did feel like it was manufactured for the show.

If you listen to those who have little or no interest in F1 and watched the race in a way a non-football fan watches the world cup final I think you'll find that is the overwhelming sentiment.

As you, I am not a fan of a single driver or team ( or try not to be ) and think I can see it from both sides.
However, from both sides I see it as a mistake. Not deliberately favouring one driver, but it had that effect.

I do think it is time to move on though. It happened and can not and will not be changed. Draw a line under it and take steps to see it does not happen again.

[siskue2005]

There will never be an asterisks next to Max's 2021 title ever because he did absolutely nothing wrong or illegal or questionable. Max made a clean pass and Hamilton failed to keep Max behind. Simple as that. Lewis and Bono knew what the situation was. It was a fitting end to a controversial season, where Max and RedBull Honda ended Lewis and Mercedes dominance. That is how it will be remembered!

No, but that's not the point is it? the Race director did something wrong more than once, and they were crucial in making Max Champion. So yes, I'm afraid it is going to come up (atersisks) when people discuss the season. People still bring up the fact that Prost outscored Senna in 88 and that is not even controversial

However hard RBR/honda/max fans try to silence its not going to go away. Just like 1988, 1989, 1990, 1994 and 1997, unfortunately 2021 will forever be put in asterisk like all the examples i mentioned above.
The key difference those incidents and now with Max is that the above mentioned drivers went on to or where already on path to record breaking wins, poles and championships & became the greatest the sport has ever seen! And that eclipsed their asterisks championship(s).
Max fans should hope Max does similar thing, otherwise it will be even worse.

[morefirejules08]

I think people should try and objectively ask themselves would they still have the same opinion if the roles had been reversed?
personally as a fan of the sport rather than a particular team or driver, I like many others without a vested interest found the whole situation unsatisfactory, yes we got an exciting few corners on the last lap but it did feel like it was manufactured for the show.

If you listen to those who have little or no interest in F1 and watched the race in a way a non-football fan watches the world cup final I think you'll find that is the overwhelming sentiment.

As you, I am not a fan of a single driver or team ( or try not to be ) and think I can see it from both sides.
However, from both sides I see it as a mistake. Not deliberately favouring one driver, but it had that effect.

I do think it is time to move on though. It happened and can not and will not be changed. Draw a line under it and take steps to see it does not happen again.

Masi's decision did favour one driver but I don't think it was made because of who that driver was, ergo if the roles were reversed he would have still taken the same decision but in Hamiltons favour.

In my eyes, the situation coupled with team lobbying and the limited amount of time he had lead Masi to crumble under the pressure, do I think he should be fired? No, there just needs to be a better structure in place to relieve some of that pressure and allow better decision making.
The problem is we live in a world when high profile figures make significant mistakes it usually ends up in their job being on the line.

[Jolle]

I think people should try and objectively ask themselves would they still have the same opinion if the roles had been reversed?
personally as a fan of the sport rather than a particular team or driver, I like many others without a vested interest found the whole situation unsatisfactory, yes we got an exciting few corners on the last lap but it did feel like it was manufactured for the show.

If you listen to those who have little or no interest in F1 and watched the race in a way a non-football fan watches the world cup final I think you'll find that is the overwhelming sentiment.

As you, I am not a fan of a single driver or team ( or try not to be ) and think I can see it from both sides.
However, from both sides I see it as a mistake. Not deliberately favouring one driver, but it had that effect.

I do think it is time to move on though. It happened and can not and will not be changed. Draw a line under it and take steps to see it does not happen again.

Masi's decision did favour one driver but I don't think it was made because of who that driver was, ergo if the roles were reversed he would have still taken the same decision but in Hamiltons favour.

In my eyes, the situation coupled with team lobbying and the limited amount of time he had lead Masi to crumble under the pressure, do I think he should be fired? No, there just needs to be a better structure in place to relieve some of that pressure and allow better decision making.
The problem is we live in a world when high profile figures make significant mistakes it usually ends up in their job being on the line.

The structure, as in, doing the job without assistance like Whiting did (Masi was one of his assistants) was Masi’s choice, even after earlier cases of “WTF”.

[AeroDynamic]

I think people should try and objectively ask themselves would they still have the same opinion if the roles had been reversed?
personally as a fan of the sport rather than a particular team or driver, I like many others without a vested interest found the whole situation unsatisfactory, yes we got an exciting few corners on the last lap but it did feel like it was manufactured for the show.

If you listen to those who have little or no interest in F1 and watched the race in a way a non-football fan watches the world cup final I think you'll find that is the overwhelming sentiment.

As you, I am not a fan of a single driver or team ( or try not to be ) and think I can see it from both sides.
However, from both sides I see it as a mistake. Not deliberately favouring one driver, but it had that effect.

I do think it is time to move on though. It happened and can not and will not be changed. Draw a line under it and take steps to see it does not happen again.

Masi's decision did favour one driver but I don't think it was made because of who that driver was, ergo if the roles were reversed he would have still taken the same decision but in Hamiltons favour.

In my eyes, the situation coupled with team lobbying and the limited amount of time he had lead Masi to crumble under the pressure, do I think he should be fired? No, there just needs to be a better structure in place to relieve some of that pressure and allow better decision making.
The problem is we live in a world when high profile figures make significant mistakes it usually ends up in their job being on the line.

in a way yes, and in a way no. Because everybody who takes this view is excluding the fact that he made the decision after undue lobbying from Red Bull.

All we can say is, if Hamilton was driving for Red Bull in the RB16B in that scenario, then yes, same result is likely in that scenario. But if its Mercedes with fresh tyres in P2 behind backmarkers after pitting for fresh softs, then, no its not a given that Hamilton's race would've benefited the same way because you'd have to blow through the following assumptions:

• That Mercedes directors would lobby Masi
• That Mercedes personnel could lobby Masi as effectively as RBR's Jonathan Wheatley
• That Masi has no bias to manage from clouding his judgement
• That Ron Meadows relationship with Masi in terms of communication dynamic via interpersonal style, affords him the same degree of influence and respect from Masi as Jonathan Wheatley does.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

That Ron Meadows relationship with Masi in terms of communication dynamic via interpersonal style, affords him the same degree of influence and respect from Masi as Jonathan Wheatley does.

elaborating on this point; look at Spa. JW absolutely embarrassed Masi in front of a million viewers and the whole F1 paddock by challenging and schooling him on being able to reintroduce Sergio Perez into the race after Masi dismissed RBR's motions initially in a very dismissive way.

When someone does that to you psychologically, it does create a bit of a wound opening of them being in your head, you may become more malleable psychologically towards that individual (JW) because you're apprehensive about being embarrassed again.

[nzjrs]

The structure, as in, doing the job without assistance like Whiting did (Masi was one of his assistants) was Masi’s choice, even after earlier cases of “WTF”.

You've said this a couple of times now. Whats the citation for this?

[Wouter]

The structure, as in, doing the job without assistance like Whiting did (Masi was one of his assistants) was Masi’s choice, even after earlier cases of “WTF”.

I've looked and searched the www several times when Masi has said he didn't want any help/assistance. I cann't find it.
You seem to be stating that as fact, several times. When and where did Masi say he didn't want help/assistance?

[morefirejules08]

As you, I am not a fan of a single driver or team ( or try not to be ) and think I can see it from both sides.
However, from both sides I see it as a mistake. Not deliberately favouring one driver, but it had that effect.

I do think it is time to move on though. It happened and can not and will not be changed. Draw a line under it and take steps to see it does not happen again.

Masi's decision did favour one driver but I don't think it was made because of who that driver was, ergo if the roles were reversed he would have still taken the same decision but in Hamiltons favour.

In my eyes, the situation coupled with team lobbying and the limited amount of time he had lead Masi to crumble under the pressure, do I think he should be fired? No, there just needs to be a better structure in place to relieve some of that pressure and allow better decision making.
The problem is we live in a world when high profile figures make significant mistakes it usually ends up in their job being on the line.

in a way yes, and in a way no. Because everybody who takes this view is excluding the fact that he made the decision after undue lobbying from Red Bull.

All we can say is, if Hamilton was driving for Red Bull in the RB16B in that scenario, then yes, same result is likely in that scenario. But if its Mercedes with fresh tyres in P2 behind backmarkers after pitting for fresh softs, then, no its not a given that Hamilton's race would've benefited the same way because you'd have to blow through the following assumptions:

• That Mercedes directors would lobby Masi
• That Mercedes personnel could lobby Masi as effectively as RBR's Jonathan Wheatley
• That Masi has no bias to manage from clouding his judgement
• That Ron Meadows relationship with Masi in terms of communication dynamic via interpersonal style, affords him the same degree of influence and respect from Masi as Jonathan Wheatley does.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

That Ron Meadows relationship with Masi in terms of communication dynamic via interpersonal style, affords him the same degree of influence and respect from Masi as Jonathan Wheatley does.

elaborating on this point; look at Spa. JW absolutely embarrassed Masi in front of a million viewers and the whole F1 paddock by challenging and schooling him on being able to reintroduce Sergio Perez into the race after Masi dismissed RBR's motions initially in a very dismissive way.

When someone does that to you psychologically, it does create a bit of a wound opening of them being in your head, you may become more malleable psychologically towards that individual (JW) because you're apprehensive about being embarrassed again.

I can see where you are coming from, personally I believe if the roles had been reversed, like for like, team lobbing included etc, because surely MB would have asked for the lapped cars to be removed, then I think Masi's desperation for an exciting final lap would have lead to him making the same decision.

[AeroDynamic]

Masi's decision did favour one driver but I don't think it was made because of who that driver was, ergo if the roles were reversed he would have still taken the same decision but in Hamiltons favour.

In my eyes, the situation coupled with team lobbying and the limited amount of time he had lead Masi to crumble under the pressure, do I think he should be fired? No, there just needs to be a better structure in place to relieve some of that pressure and allow better decision making.
The problem is we live in a world when high profile figures make significant mistakes it usually ends up in their job being on the line.

in a way yes, and in a way no. Because everybody who takes this view is excluding the fact that he made the decision after undue lobbying from Red Bull.

All we can say is, if Hamilton was driving for Red Bull in the RB16B in that scenario, then yes, same result is likely in that scenario. But if its Mercedes with fresh tyres in P2 behind backmarkers after pitting for fresh softs, then, no its not a given that Hamilton's race would've benefited the same way because you'd have to blow through the following assumptions:

• That Mercedes directors would lobby Masi
• That Mercedes personnel could lobby Masi as effectively as RBR's Jonathan Wheatley
• That Masi has no bias to manage from clouding his judgement
• That Ron Meadows relationship with Masi in terms of communication dynamic via interpersonal style, affords him the same degree of influence and respect from Masi as Jonathan Wheatley does.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

That Ron Meadows relationship with Masi in terms of communication dynamic via interpersonal style, affords him the same degree of influence and respect from Masi as Jonathan Wheatley does.

elaborating on this point; look at Spa. JW absolutely embarrassed Masi in front of a million viewers and the whole F1 paddock by challenging and schooling him on being able to reintroduce Sergio Perez into the race after Masi dismissed RBR's motions initially in a very dismissive way.

When someone does that to you psychologically, it does create a bit of a wound opening of them being in your head, you may become more malleable psychologically towards that individual (JW) because you're apprehensive about being embarrassed again.

I can see where you are coming from, personally I believe if the roles had been reversed, like for like, team lobbing included etc, because surely MB would have asked for the lapped cars to be removed, then I think Masi's desperation for an exciting final lap would have lead to him making the same decision.

Why do you assume it was 'Masi's desperation for an exciting final lap' ?? wasn't it Masi who said in Germany 2020 that he has to follow the rules that all lapped cars must unlap themselves.. and it was after the teams discussed avoiding races finishing behind safety cars that he heeded?

Again, I put it to you that it was undue lobbying from RBR that made him cave into making that decision. When he responded to Toto about it, he used JW's sentiments to justify what he had just done.

If you take the opinion that Masi's decision was purely of his own making, then that is fine, you are entitled to your opinion.

But I would say to you, that in the course of the FIA investigating Abu Dhabi, the first change they wanted to implement was banning this lobbying behaviour via communication channels no longer being allowed between the RD and the team personnel. For me, this clearly indicates that Masi and the FIA lay blame with lobbying Masi with undue pressure that played a significant role in his actions and decision making.

It is behind this that I hold a firm opinion for now that it is far from a given that Masi would've made the same decision if another team / driver was in RBR's position in that scenario. The key for me, was Jonathan Wheatley and Christian Horner's lobbying and successful manipulating.. and potentially bias in the way that he responds to RBR – in that he may respond and behave more tentatively towards them.

[NathanOlder]

There will never be an asterisks next to Max's 2021 title ever because he did absolutely nothing wrong or illegal or questionable. Max made a clean pass and Hamilton failed to keep Max behind. Simple as that. Lewis and Bono knew what the situation was. It was a fitting end to a controversial season, where Max and RedBull Honda ended Lewis and Mercedes dominance. That is how it will be remembered!

No, but that's not the point is it? the Race director did something wrong more than once, and they were crucial in making Max Champion. So yes, I'm afraid it is going to come up (atersisks) when people discuss the season. People still bring up the fact that Prost outscored Senna in 88 and that is not even controversial

Very good point