scuderiabrandon wrote: ↑18 Jul 2023, 17:08
ringo wrote: ↑18 Jul 2023, 16:47
CMSMJ1 wrote: ↑17 Jul 2023, 10:55
As a mod - guys - bickering is bloody tedious. Play the ball, not the person. Some decent points being made and it doesn't need to be point scoring against your peers on this place.
Thanks @Vanja for the response last page - as a user, not as a moderation team - it is good to have sensible conversation ref the worst Ferrari driver in 25 years?
To be fair to Ferrari, for several of those years they have had some unbalanced teams
Alesi and Berger
Schumi and Irvine
Schumi and Barrichello
Schumi and Massa
Raikkonen and Massa
Massa/Badoer/Fisi and Alonso
Alonso and Kimi
Kimi and Vettel
Vettel and Charles
Charles and Carlos
Is that right? missed anyone? I'd suggest Carlos, for his 2 years in the job has done a decent job against Charles who we all agree is the better driver? (right, is anyone saying that all else being equal that Carlos is going to beat Charles?)
My opinion is that when the no1 seat is driven by the best driver and the team can pull together with it then Ferrari can deliver - if there is too much balance, as there is today, then the team cannot deliver 2x winning cars.
The issues really are that Ferrari cannot get their business together. A significant waste of talented driving skills in these seats.
That list has mostly very competent drivers apart from Badoer. Goes to show that discussing Sainz or Leclerc is really nitpicking. As a neutral in this discussion, from my observation Leclerc has more talent, but Sainz is more complete, and this explains why he is usually closer to the podium. Leclerc is very volatile and the less likely to mount a challenge in a championship.
Let's look back to 2022.. remember that Leclerc took himself out of the championship because of errors in qualifying and race.
All sainz lacks is the ability to get the most out of the tyres with Ferrari and some raw pace. But looking on his history with Mclaren and Renault, he was actually a strong long run pace driver whenever he gets the tyre working.
As long as Leclerc is with Ferrari they will not win a championship. And this is not because he does not have the talent, but he has does not seem to have the emotional intelligence to look inside himself and surgically fix his weaknesses. We see drivers like Hamilton, Alonso, Max, Vettel who continuously improve their driving methodically and calmly. Charles seems to overdo the self critical aspect and bashes himself only to go back and do a similar mistake or get paranoid and bash the team or get grumpy about his teammate.
Until he fixes his head, I would say Sainz is the more likely to bring Ferrari a championship. Just give him a rocket ship that's kind on its tyres.
Leclerc is stronger, but too volatile. With a rocket ship, I can see him driving over the limit when it's not needed, or not biding his time and imploding mentally.
It's an interesting driver pairing, but looking on the score board now, you can kind of see where Sainz, though slower, has used his maturity and strategic brain to be the one with the better results.
As long as Leclerc is with Ferrari they will not win a championship. And this is not because he does not have the talent, but he has does not seem to have the emotional intelligence to look inside himself and surgically fix his weaknesses
Most recent example of him 'surgically' trying to fix his weaknesses. Went out in FP3 in damp conditions to get a better feel of the tyre in those conditions.
Leclerc is very volatile and the less likely to mount a challenge in a championship.
Please remind who was in a championship battle last season and who was fighting for P5. Charles had 3 out of 4 wins when the cars was a rocketship and kind on its tyres. Should've been 4/4 we all know he got robbed in Silverstone for a teammate that was 0.5s slower/lap.
Not to mention the wins thrown away by his team in Spain, Monaco, Hungary. Aswell has a podium in Baku.
https://imgbb.com/
LEC - red
SAI - white
Almost 0.5s a lap quicker after they made the switch when Sainz' engineer said "this pace is not good enough, we invert the cars" I'm paraphrasing but I'm sure you can find the exact radio message somewhere.
Charles seems to overdo the self critical aspect and bashes himself only to go back and do a similar mistake or get paranoid and bash the team or get grumpy about his teammate.
Charles has only thrown the team under the bus once i his 5 years at the team. Canada '23 where he asked for soft tyres when the track was clear dry enough for dry tyres i.e Albon in P1.
Let's look back to 2022.. remember that Leclerc took himself out of the championship because of errors in qualifying and race.
Leclerc only driver errors in a competitive session was Imola - France, the rest of his shortcomings were due to reliability and strategic errors. Difference is LEC was in a chamionship battle, Sainz was hanging on for dear life to outscore the Mercedes guys, who for a good majority of the season had a car 0.8% slower.
We see drivers like Hamilton, Alonso, Max, Vettel who continuously improve their driving methodically and calmly.
“Only with Lewis Hamilton have I seen as much self-criticism as I saw with Charles Leclerc,” Vasseur, now Alfa Romeo team boss, told Speed Week.
“They’re the only drivers I saw in my career who criticised themselves even after winning. Every other driver pats himself on the shoulder. I mean – they won!
“But they both knew that they could have driven better. They were relentless in that way,” Vasseur added.
Take it from someone who has worked closely with both drivers.
It's an interesting driver pairing, but looking on the score board now, you can kind of see where Sainz, though slower, has used his maturity and strategic brain to be the one with the better results.
Wheres Perez in this season? He is in the fastest car and known as 'tyre whisperer'. You still need to be a fast driver to contest championships, your majurtiy alone doesn't win you races
Podium count in 2023
LEC - 2
SAI - 0
Pole Positions
LEC - 2*
SAI - 0
I remind you in 2023 that 2 podiums have been stripped form Leclerc this season due to reliability (BAH) and communication errors (MON). Would you really be having this converstation if the poodium tally was 4-0? The difference is currently 9 points with 2 DNF's in Sainz' favor? Do you really see that as someone who will lead a team to a championship?
If you are going to make such strong statements, at least make a valid argument in case for Sainz. Its always "Sainz is more complete and mature" but there never any evidence to back your statments.
I've entertained this argument enough, it is starting to feel like trolls are just out to re-ignite a completely rinsed out topic with nothing to back themsleves with.