2023 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, July 28 - 30

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Cs98
Cs98
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Re: 2023 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, July 28 - 30

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Hammerfist wrote:
29 Jul 2023, 22:55
Yea thats baloney sorry. That is not what it says in the rule book. There is no such definition of the defending car being ahead after the apex. You just nade that up? Here is the rule quoted from a planet f1 article regarding the matter:

“In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track,” the FIA have clarified.

https://www.planetf1.com/features/f1-ov ... ngagement/

Basically you must leave enough room on exit if someone is alongside you. Plain and simple. Its not like hamilton was not in control and pushed him off the track. He made contact because perez did not use all the available track. Theres always going to be understeer in that corner. Perez being a f1 caliber driver should anticipate it. Once you lose the inside line you have to recognize that you are in a defensive situation and your goal should be to avoid contact, not trying to save what is lost desperately trying to squeeze a car whose momentum is always going to go wide. Thats just dumb driving. I mean you can see hamiltons car from perezs onboard before he decides to turn in anyway. The fact hamiltons car is visible from the onbiard camera shows how far alongside he was. The fact perez got ahead before contact is a result of him faking an advantage he never had.

Alonso pulled a similar move with hamilton in bahrain. Different corner i know but hamilton conceded because alonso was too far alongside. Had hamilton squeezed there there would have been contact and the same stewards would have probably penalized alonso. That doesnt make it right though.
Remember Silverstone last season where Perez pushed Hamilton off the track and nothing happened? Reason why? He was ahead at and from the apex of the corner. They simply re-purpose the "overtaking on the outside" guidelines and use the same principles for a car defending on the outside. Because fundamentally when two cars go into a corner side-by-side it doesn't matter which one is attacking or defending, they are side by side and afforded the same right to space based on those guidelines.

In this case Hamilton was left enough space and understeered into Perez. Though not dramatic, understeer is a version of losing control of the car. Perez is not deemed equally at fault because despite your claims to the contrary, he left space for a car on the inside, as evidenced by the fact it was not until the exit of the corner when Hamilton was understeering wide that contact was made. It's a pretty simple penalty really, only complicated by who it was given to.
Once you lose the inside line you have to recognize that you are in a defensive situation and your goal should be to avoid contact, not trying to save what is lost desperately trying to squeeze a car whose momentum is always going to go wide. Thats just dumb driving.
Nonsense. Perez left space on the inside for the apex and was ahead on the exit. He is entitled to fight for that position without being driven into from the car on the inside. The responsibility to avoid a collision is on both drivers, but in this case one did their part (Perez), and the other didn't.

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aleks_ader
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Joined: 28 Jul 2011, 08:40

Re: 2023 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, July 28 - 30

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Mogster wrote:
29 Jul 2023, 23:10
denyall wrote:
29 Jul 2023, 22:58
Sieper wrote:
Yeah, and I 100% agree with that decision, the spray in the first laps was horrendous. But I was trying to find some way to get them to still start on inters as that was the needed tire.
Max out front with the benefit of clear road said good decision when told about the plan on the radio.

I hope they can develop spray shields or some other mitigation to the spray danger.
The cars are just rain hoovers, I really don’t see what they can do. There has been some talk of rear view cameras, is an IR head up display worth looking into I wonder.
Yep upwash and GF effect helps overtaking but does not help rain. Catch 22. ](*,)

Maybe we need to sort out some more porous asphalt or something...

EDIT 1 addon: Or made rain and intermediates tires even bigger diameter to raise cars even more and reduce up wash and downforce even more.

CRAZY idea: Fan car could help, because FIA could made specific rule boxes or even filters or standard nozzle exits at much higher areas (narrower exit). Essentially same downforce but much more efficient use of air volume hence less mist on wider areas.
"And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver..." Ayrton Senna

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TNTHead
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Joined: 01 May 2017, 21:41
Location: The Netherlands

Re: 2023 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, July 28 - 30

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Wouter wrote:
29 Jul 2023, 20:04
I was going to read the race thread for a while, but it's the same as yesterday. A few fanatical Lewis fans spewing their bile about
RBR/ Perez/ Max/ their fans.
Lewis never does anything wrong and RBR/ Perez/ Max/ their fans are crazy and always wrong/ always at fault.
I expected to read good news about the results, but you have to go elsewhere for that. :( So .......




🍾🎂🎊🥳🎉🎈 🎂 🍾 PIASTRI !!🥳 🎉 🎈🍾🎂🎊🥳🎉🎈

OSCAR: "To lead my first laps is a day I won't forget"



I forgot, but now I remember some wise words someone said a few years ago: stay away from the race threads. As it shows it derails quickly. Although I can understand it a bit: whatever happens, VER wins anyway (at the moment), so you'll look for subjects to debate on.

The HAM penalty ìs controversial because it seems a racing incident. May be the stewards wanted to emphasize that you cannot use understeering as a means of winning a corner.

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denyall
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Joined: 02 Mar 2023, 19:46
Location: California, USA

Re: 2023 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, July 28 - 30

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Farnborough wrote:
the EDGE wrote:
29 Jul 2023, 23:02
denyall wrote:
29 Jul 2023, 23:00
I didn't see any discussion on why a full SC was called and not a VSC for Alonso?

In the Sprint format, wouldn't a VSC have been preferred?
Probably because of the weather conditions
Given the acknowledged risk here in wet conditions, it seems more logical to go straight to VSC in this scenario as it controls pace (if used correctly) for all the circuit to cover immediate risk in a situation like Jules Bianci was involved.

Can always then move to SC if required.
Much better articulated than my attempt!

VSC immediately, then full SC if needed.

VSC was created due in part to a terrible incident in conditions like these where DWY didn't slow cars down. Figured this was it's time to shine.

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denyall
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Location: California, USA

Re: 2023 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, July 28 - 30

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aleks_ader wrote:
Mogster wrote:
29 Jul 2023, 23:10
denyall wrote:
29 Jul 2023, 22:58
Max out front with the benefit of clear road said good decision when told about the plan on the radio.

I hope they can develop spray shields or some other mitigation to the spray danger.
The cars are just rain hoovers, I really don’t see what they can do. There has been some talk of rear view cameras, is an IR head up display worth looking into I wonder.
Yep upwash and GF effect helps overtaking but does not help rain. Catch 22. ](*,)

Maybe we need to sort out some more porous asphalt or something...

EDIT 1 addon: Or made rain and intermediates tires even bigger diameter to raise cars even more and reduce up wash and downforce even more.

CRAZY idea: Fan car could help, because FIA could made specific rule boxes or even filters or standard nozzle exits at much higher areas (narrower exit). Essentially same downforce but much more efficient use of air volume hence less mist on wider areas.
Could they run the fan on the fan car in reverse to blow the track dry?

I did think that bolt on tire shrouds or similar could cut the tire spray down enough so that the diffuser didn't blow so much up into the air.

Farnborough
Farnborough
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Joined: 18 Mar 2023, 14:15

Re: 2023 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, July 28 - 30

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denyall wrote:
29 Jul 2023, 23:56
Farnborough wrote:
the EDGE wrote:
29 Jul 2023, 23:02


Probably because of the weather conditions
Given the acknowledged risk here in wet conditions, it seems more logical to go straight to VSC in this scenario as it controls pace (if used correctly) for all the circuit to cover immediate risk in a situation like Jules Bianci was involved.

Can always then move to SC if required.
Much better articulated than my attempt!

VSC immediately, then full SC if needed.

VSC was created due in part to a terrible incident in conditions like these where DWY didn't slow cars down. Figured this was it's time to shine.
Yes, I understood it the same, created to accept and control the risk (that maybe unseen by race control) in the review of aftermath from that race in Japan.
Quench the race pace, decide what to do then, while leaving drivers not able to pile into any situation at race pace.

Harvester
Harvester
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Joined: 08 Apr 2018, 23:14

Re: 2023 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, July 28 - 30

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I am very surprised noone tried staying on wets and then later putting softs.

Singapore2008
Singapore2008
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Joined: 04 Sep 2018, 12:17

Re: 2023 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, July 28 - 30

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Harvester wrote:
30 Jul 2023, 00:08
I am very surprised noone tried staying on wets and then later putting softs.
I thought maybe Ocon was trying to make that happen at first.

GrizzleBoy
GrizzleBoy
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Joined: 05 Mar 2012, 04:06

Re: 2023 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, July 28 - 30

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langedweil wrote:
29 Jul 2023, 21:50
GrizzleBoy wrote:
29 Jul 2023, 19:40
Also, if I'm trolling for saying Sergio squeezed Ham, then the official FIA penalty document that was in the post you quoted is trolling where it quite literally says Sergio left Hamilton "little room" at the apex where they say in their won words is what caused Ham to go to the kerb and lose traction in the first place.......so..
Little room is still a whole lot more than no room; there was about 1,5 cars width available that disappeared when Ham understeered.
I don't see any juxtaposition in that statement really. I'm unbiased whether it was a penalty or not, but understeering into someone never looks good on anyone ..
At the time when Hamilton was on the kerb at the apex there was nowhere near 1.5 cars width.

The FIA literally said from all their telemetry and camera angles that they have that Perez left little space at the apex which is what pushed Hamilton onto the waterlogged kerb and lose traction.

The gap opened up after the apex because perez was taking a different line despite their lines converging at the apex, but Hams loss of traction and requirement of taking a tighter line due to Perez squeezing on corner entrance and not using all of the track on the exit (until he got tapped) caused him to drift.

Like I said in an earlier post, you're not even arguing with me anymore, you're arguing with the FIA.

cplchanb
cplchanb
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Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 19:13

Re: 2023 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, July 28 - 30

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holeindalip wrote:
29 Jul 2023, 22:23
Red Bulls side pods are at the max width, same exact contact Russell had with max at Baku. Tire to sidepod…
On that note Russell DID NOT get any penalty for that hit even though he went airborne and was completely out of control. Wheres the freaking consistency in penalty application?

And before anyone says it it's been said time and time again, the penalty is on the action not the outcome.

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
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Joined: 13 Oct 2019, 03:02

Re: 2023 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, July 28 - 30

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“F1 is a snooze fest, Max (previously Lewis, previously Vettel, previously Alonso, previously Schumacher) runs away with it, the cars can’t follow each other, -whine-“

-FIA adds sprint RACES to add excitement-

-Lewis and Sergio have contact while racing wheel to wheel closely in the wet”

“€|€%>\€_+{¥~*%\%>?{£|+\€7-752(/)-“ - F1Technical posters

And..

-FIA adds sprint races and changes the entire rule set to promote racing-

-racing happens-

“OMG NO” - FIA

:lol: :roll:
Last edited by Hoffman900 on 30 Jul 2023, 01:00, edited 1 time in total.

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organic
1055
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2023 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, July 28 - 30

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cplchanb wrote:
30 Jul 2023, 00:53
holeindalip wrote:
29 Jul 2023, 22:23
Red Bulls side pods are at the max width, same exact contact Russell had with max at Baku. Tire to sidepod…
On that note Russell DID NOT get any penalty for that hit even though he went airborne and was completely out of control. Wheres the freaking consistency in penalty application?

And before anyone says it it's been said time and time again, the penalty is on the action not the outcome.
Russell's one was a lap 1 thing hence the inconsistency

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denyall
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Joined: 02 Mar 2023, 19:46
Location: California, USA

Re: 2023 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, July 28 - 30

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Hoffman900 wrote:“F1 is a snooze fest, Max (previously Lewis, previously Vettel, previously Alonso, previously Schumacher) runs away with it, the cars can’t follow each other, -whine-“

-FIA adds sprint RACES to add excitement-

-Lewis and Sergio have contact while racing wheel to wheel closely in the wet”

“€|€%>\€_+{¥~*%\%>?{£|+\€7-752(/)-“ - F1Technical posters

And..

-FIA adds sprint races and changes the entire rule set to promote racing-

-racing happens-

“OMG NO” - FIA

:roll:
Sure glad I'm not in charge !

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
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Joined: 13 Oct 2019, 03:02

Re: 2023 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, July 28 - 30

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denyall wrote:
30 Jul 2023, 01:01
Hoffman900 wrote:“F1 is a snooze fest, Max (previously Lewis, previously Vettel, previously Alonso, previously Schumacher) runs away with it, the cars can’t follow each other, -whine-“

-FIA adds sprint RACES to add excitement-

-Lewis and Sergio have contact while racing wheel to wheel closely in the wet”

“€|€%>\€_+{¥~*%\%>?{£|+\€7-752(/)-“ - F1Technical posters

And..

-FIA adds sprint races and changes the entire rule set to promote racing-

-racing happens-

“OMG NO” - FIA

:roll:
Sure glad I'm not in charge !
Remember when some people really thought Bernie’s idea to add sprinklers was a good idea? :lol:

The people don’t know what they want, but they do love to whine!

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langedweil
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Joined: 23 Mar 2018, 20:51
Location: Caribbean

Re: 2023 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, July 28 - 30

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denyall wrote:
29 Jul 2023, 23:00
I didn't see any discussion on why a full SC was called and not a VSC for Alonso?

In the Sprint format, wouldn't a VSC have been preferred?
I guess to avoid a Jules-like accident ...
HuggaWugga !