Yes, Stefanini was there in 2023 as well, he knows Fiorano track as maybe only Ferrari members do and was among the few to claim that the SF-23 wasn’t a good car.
As you say, it doesn’t mean anything about the performance of the SF-24.
Yes, Stefanini was there in 2023 as well, he knows Fiorano track as maybe only Ferrari members do and was among the few to claim that the SF-23 wasn’t a good car.
Maybe it's the '17 title loss that led Binotto to this. Mercedes on average was a much peakier car that was a bit slower in races most of the time, especially before technical directives imposed by the FIA, yet Ferrari couldn't do anything about this because they qualified behind them and were down on straight line speed in races, making overtaking very difficult.Xyz22 wrote: ↑17 Feb 2024, 12:28So i'd like to comment about something i have been thinking for the last few years and apparently i'm not the only one.
...
- Ferrari has demonstrated relatively strong performance in qualifying, even with the SF23. We understand that in qualifying, everything is pushed to the limit: minimal fuel, the softest tires without management constraints, and drivers pushing the boundaries throughout the lap.
- On the other hand, Red Bull has shown superior race pace compared not only to Ferrari but to everyone else, including McLaren, for example.
Moreover, this aligns perfectly with Binotto's supposed performance philosophy. The SF90 had tremendous peak performance, yet struggled significantly in race trim. Even the engine exhibited superior power output compared to the competition in qualifying, but the advantage narrowed considerably during races.
What do you think about this?
I understand why you keep making correlation between two cars, but it was just different situations leading to the same end result. I've given my view of the situation with SF23 to dialtone the other day:Xyz22 wrote: ↑17 Feb 2024, 12:28Moreover, this aligns perfectly with Binotto's supposed performance philosophy. The SF90 had tremendous peak performance, yet struggled significantly in race trim. Even the engine exhibited superior power output compared to the competition in qualifying, but the advantage narrowed considerably during races.
What do you think about this?
Vanja #66 wrote: ↑15 Feb 2024, 22:11In hindsight, Vasseur had the worst thing happen, he inherited a bad car and had to iron out everything inside the team and out towards the public. Their statements were reserved and collected, they said they have work to do during pre season test. Saying the car matches the sim data is only good as long as sim data is good, and looking back at 2023 team thread I didn't find them saying that. Only media speculation. Both drivers had a poor body language, as they understood the reality but no one is gonna admit how tough things are.
The worst that happened last year was the grand launch and Vigna saying the car is "unprecedented in terms of speed" whatever that was supposed to mean. There was great pressure from Vigna to deliver both Championships and everyone in the team seemingly knew it wasn't going to happen. Sanchez was going out, a few more people, later Mekies as well. Those who stayed put their heads down and made a great recovery from scratch.
The statements are now more positive, but fairly realistic - the car is much better than starting position last year, it does everything like it should and we want to fight for wins. That last part simply has to be said when driving for Ferrari, otherwise the whole Italy will start knocking on your door
Vanja #66 wrote: ↑15 Feb 2024, 22:27Actually it was his fault directly. He insisted the primary goal must be to reduce drag a lot and increase downforce and he wanted to see the numbers that said so. This was somewhere around summer 22 sa far as I understood. Binotto strongly disagreed, as did Sanchez and this was one of the biggest reason for those break ups, or the final drop as they say... Guess this is why we are now seeing and hearing a lot more of Elkann, while Vigna is snubbed.
This is my best understanding on how a great 22 car evolved into one-lap wonder in 23, from some people close to the team and what we got to read in the press (speculation and factual reports equally). SF23 had this one lap pace when being pushed on the absolute edge, which was completely unsustainable in races since both the setup wasn't allowing this and the inherit rear end instability kept showing up. This ruined tyres more quickly, which forced them to slow down late in the stint (early in the season this was pronounced the most) which further degraded the aero.Vanja #66 wrote: ↑15 Feb 2024, 22:42Yes, if you want to cut drag by reducing outwash and lower the floor roof to make more downforce you get the same thing Mercedes did with W13. From my understanding, this is what knowingly ended up happening after engineers were forced to show required results. A team that was so good with the car a year ago can't go so much back on its own, there's always an idiotic external influence, it took me a while to reconcile that
What happened after Bahrain is they switched to fully developing (the already started) Evo program shown in Barcelona and I guess Vasseur made sure Elkann fully understood the engineering team can't get pressured into fulfilling external wishes from non-motorsport personnel. Ever again I hope. They had a lot of re-learning to do, but basically even the first Evo package was an improvement after they got the setup right and every update later really was an improvement. Front wing design heavily influenced inherited understeer and only with Japan floor update was that bit ironed out slightly.
Mercedes did somehow manage to have very good tire wear with the W13, though.Vanja #66 wrote: ↑15 Feb 2024, 22:42Yes, if you want to cut drag by reducing outwash and lower the floor roof to make more downforce you get the same thing Mercedes did with W13. From my understanding, this is what knowingly ended up happening after engineers were forced to show required results. A team that was so good with the car a year ago can't go so much back on its own, there's always an idiotic external influence, it took me a while to reconcile that
Vanja #66 wrote: ↑17 Feb 2024, 16:27I understand why you keep making correlation between two cars, but it was just different situations leading to the same end result. I've given my view of the situation with SF23 to dialtone the other day:Xyz22 wrote: ↑17 Feb 2024, 12:28Moreover, this aligns perfectly with Binotto's supposed performance philosophy. The SF90 had tremendous peak performance, yet struggled significantly in race trim. Even the engine exhibited superior power output compared to the competition in qualifying, but the advantage narrowed considerably during races.
What do you think about this?
Vanja #66 wrote: ↑15 Feb 2024, 22:11In hindsight, Vasseur had the worst thing happen, he inherited a bad car and had to iron out everything inside the team and out towards the public. Their statements were reserved and collected, they said they have work to do during pre season test. Saying the car matches the sim data is only good as long as sim data is good, and looking back at 2023 team thread I didn't find them saying that. Only media speculation. Both drivers had a poor body language, as they understood the reality but no one is gonna admit how tough things are.
The worst that happened last year was the grand launch and Vigna saying the car is "unprecedented in terms of speed" whatever that was supposed to mean. There was great pressure from Vigna to deliver both Championships and everyone in the team seemingly knew it wasn't going to happen. Sanchez was going out, a few more people, later Mekies as well. Those who stayed put their heads down and made a great recovery from scratch.
The statements are now more positive, but fairly realistic - the car is much better than starting position last year, it does everything like it should and we want to fight for wins. That last part simply has to be said when driving for Ferrari, otherwise the whole Italy will start knocking on your doorVanja #66 wrote: ↑15 Feb 2024, 22:27Actually it was his fault directly. He insisted the primary goal must be to reduce drag a lot and increase downforce and he wanted to see the numbers that said so. This was somewhere around summer 22 sa far as I understood. Binotto strongly disagreed, as did Sanchez and this was one of the biggest reason for those break ups, or the final drop as they say... Guess this is why we are now seeing and hearing a lot more of Elkann, while Vigna is snubbed.This is my best understanding on how a great 22 car evolved into one-lap wonder in 23, from some people close to the team and what we got to read in the press (speculation and factual reports equally). SF23 had this one lap pace when being pushed on the absolute edge, which was completely unsustainable in races since both the setup wasn't allowing this and the inherit rear end instability kept showing up. This ruined tyres more quickly, which forced them to slow down late in the stint (early in the season this was pronounced the most) which further degraded the aero.Vanja #66 wrote: ↑15 Feb 2024, 22:42Yes, if you want to cut drag by reducing outwash and lower the floor roof to make more downforce you get the same thing Mercedes did with W13. From my understanding, this is what knowingly ended up happening after engineers were forced to show required results. A team that was so good with the car a year ago can't go so much back on its own, there's always an idiotic external influence, it took me a while to reconcile that
What happened after Bahrain is they switched to fully developing (the already started) Evo program shown in Barcelona and I guess Vasseur made sure Elkann fully understood the engineering team can't get pressured into fulfilling external wishes from non-motorsport personnel. Ever again I hope. They had a lot of re-learning to do, but basically even the first Evo package was an improvement after they got the setup right and every update later really was an improvement. Front wing design heavily influenced inherited understeer and only with Japan floor update was that bit ironed out slightly.
Like we said last year - heavy car can't corner as fast which takes away aero load, which takes away suspension compression, which takes away low ride height, which takes away aero load even further.
This is the first time I am seeing this news website. How reliable is it? or are there other credible sources that say similar thing?dialtone wrote: ↑17 Feb 2024, 18:57I think wrong thread, but according to this article yes http://www.ss9modena.it/2024/02/14/la-s ... lla-sf-23/
The source is still Alessandro Stefanini. Ex Autosprint journalist and he was in Fiorano.bagajohny wrote: ↑17 Feb 2024, 19:27This is the first time I am seeing this news website. How reliable is it? or are there other credible sources that say similar thing?dialtone wrote: ↑17 Feb 2024, 18:57I think wrong thread, but according to this article yes http://www.ss9modena.it/2024/02/14/la-s ... lla-sf-23/
These laptimes don't mean anything because so many things can change from the two sessions :
It got faster relative to itself though considering that they were able to keep up with RB in qualy (generally), and RB got faster throughout the season. Leclerc would have been close to pole in Bahrain on a 2nd run, and then was only 1 tenth off pole in Abu Dhabi at the end of the year. It shows Ferrari improved.
Did it really? Check out degradation in early races And later check how much slower they got before Barcelona upgrade, so they could run longer (without stressing tyres so much)CouncilorIrissa wrote: ↑17 Feb 2024, 16:51Mercedes did somehow manage to have very good tire wear with the W13, though.
You may have misunderstood me. Both of those events are facts, not opinions. I think Andi76 also confirmed it in 2023 thread
I definitely remember them getting better as the stint went on, something I haven't seen from Ferrari cars since god knows whenVanja #66 wrote: ↑17 Feb 2024, 20:37Did it really? Check out degradation in early races And later check how much slower they got before Barcelona upgrade, so they could run longer (without stressing tyres so much)CouncilorIrissa wrote: ↑17 Feb 2024, 16:51Mercedes did somehow manage to have very good tire wear with the W13, though.
Although this was not at all the point of my posts, W13 was deeply troublesome on many fronts, so they decided to set it up so it treats the tyres well and were likely hoping for problems up front to pick up the odd podium...
You may have misunderstood me. Both of those events are facts, not opinions. I think Andi76 also confirmed it in 2023 thread
You can use this to check out every race lap times since 2018 I think, maybe it refreshes your memory on how Vegas and Abu Dhabi races went for Leclerc compared to MaxCouncilorIrissa wrote: ↑17 Feb 2024, 21:25I definitely remember them getting better as the stint went on, something I haven't seen from Ferrari cars since god knows when
You can find more details here, all in one place --> viewtopic.php?p=1111320#p1111320CouncilorIrissa wrote: ↑17 Feb 2024, 21:25Going back to Ferrari, what was it exactly about SF23 design that suggested it had less outwash than its predecessor? FW design? Sidepod inlets?
aleks_ader wrote: ↑18 Feb 2024, 11:56I think narrow triangular pod is quite nice complementary feature. Sidepods are bulbous anyway... Why dont use this free volume anyway.