2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[DoctorRadio]

Also a "comparison" between SF 23 launch spec and SF 24 running in Fiorano

Unsure as to how much the resurfacing may have played a role here, but the difference is like day and night.

An ex Autosprint journalist (Alessandro Stefanini) was there at the filming day and said the same thing. The SF 24 was performing much better than the SF 23 according to him. Doesn't mean anything of course, just to provide a bit of context.

Yes, Stefanini was there in 2023 as well, he knows Fiorano track as maybe only Ferrari members do and was among the few to claim that the SF-23 wasn’t a good car.

As you say, it doesn’t mean anything about the performance of the SF-24.

[CouncilorIrissa]

So i'd like to comment about something i have been thinking for the last few years and apparently i'm not the only one.
...
- Ferrari has demonstrated relatively strong performance in qualifying, even with the SF23. We understand that in qualifying, everything is pushed to the limit: minimal fuel, the softest tires without management constraints, and drivers pushing the boundaries throughout the lap.
- On the other hand, Red Bull has shown superior race pace compared not only to Ferrari but to everyone else, including McLaren, for example.

Moreover, this aligns perfectly with Binotto's supposed performance philosophy. The SF90 had tremendous peak performance, yet struggled significantly in race trim. Even the engine exhibited superior power output compared to the competition in qualifying, but the advantage narrowed considerably during races.

What do you think about this?

Maybe it's the '17 title loss that led Binotto to this. Mercedes on average was a much peakier car that was a bit slower in races most of the time, especially before technical directives imposed by the FIA, yet Ferrari couldn't do anything about this because they qualified behind them and were down on straight line speed in races, making overtaking very difficult.

I wish Ferrari came back to the SF70H performance philosophy. I'm tired of our drivers being the prey in races, rather than hunters.

[Vanja #66]

Moreover, this aligns perfectly with Binotto's supposed performance philosophy. The SF90 had tremendous peak performance, yet struggled significantly in race trim. Even the engine exhibited superior power output compared to the competition in qualifying, but the advantage narrowed considerably during races.

What do you think about this?

I understand why you keep making correlation between two cars, but it was just different situations leading to the same end result. I've given my view of the situation with SF23 to dialtone the other day:

In hindsight, Vasseur had the worst thing happen, he inherited a bad car and had to iron out everything inside the team and out towards the public. Their statements were reserved and collected, they said they have work to do during pre season test. Saying the car matches the sim data is only good as long as sim data is good, and looking back at 2023 team thread I didn't find them saying that. Only media speculation. Both drivers had a poor body language, as they understood the reality but no one is gonna admit how tough things are.

The worst that happened last year was the grand launch and Vigna saying the car is "unprecedented in terms of speed" whatever that was supposed to mean. There was great pressure from Vigna to deliver both Championships and everyone in the team seemingly knew it wasn't going to happen. Sanchez was going out, a few more people, later Mekies as well. Those who stayed put their heads down and made a great recovery from scratch.

The statements are now more positive, but fairly realistic - the car is much better than starting position last year, it does everything like it should and we want to fight for wins. That last part simply has to be said when driving for Ferrari, otherwise the whole Italy will start knocking on your door

Actually it was his fault directly. He insisted the primary goal must be to reduce drag a lot and increase downforce and he wanted to see the numbers that said so. This was somewhere around summer 22 sa far as I understood. Binotto strongly disagreed, as did Sanchez and this was one of the biggest reason for those break ups, or the final drop as they say... Guess this is why we are now seeing and hearing a lot more of Elkann, while Vigna is snubbed.

Yes, if you want to cut drag by reducing outwash and lower the floor roof to make more downforce you get the same thing Mercedes did with W13. From my understanding, this is what knowingly ended up happening after engineers were forced to show required results. A team that was so good with the car a year ago can't go so much back on its own, there's always an idiotic external influence, it took me a while to reconcile that

What happened after Bahrain is they switched to fully developing (the already started) Evo program shown in Barcelona and I guess Vasseur made sure Elkann fully understood the engineering team can't get pressured into fulfilling external wishes from non-motorsport personnel. Ever again I hope. They had a lot of re-learning to do, but basically even the first Evo package was an improvement after they got the setup right and every update later really was an improvement. Front wing design heavily influenced inherited understeer and only with Japan floor update was that bit ironed out slightly.

This is my best understanding on how a great 22 car evolved into one-lap wonder in 23, from some people close to the team and what we got to read in the press (speculation and factual reports equally). SF23 had this one lap pace when being pushed on the absolute edge, which was completely unsustainable in races since both the setup wasn't allowing this and the inherit rear end instability kept showing up. This ruined tyres more quickly, which forced them to slow down late in the stint (early in the season this was pronounced the most) which further degraded the aero.

Like we said last year - heavy car can't corner as fast which takes away aero load, which takes away suspension compression, which takes away low ride height, which takes away aero load even further.

[CouncilorIrissa]

Yes, if you want to cut drag by reducing outwash and lower the floor roof to make more downforce you get the same thing Mercedes did with W13. From my understanding, this is what knowingly ended up happening after engineers were forced to show required results. A team that was so good with the car a year ago can't go so much back on its own, there's always an idiotic external influence, it took me a while to reconcile that

Mercedes did somehow manage to have very good tire wear with the W13, though.

[bagajohny]

Also, the infamous "Did HAM cut the chicane" incident.

oh the memories...I'm personally still hoping it was cut

Do you have any link for it? I want to see it.

[Xyz22]

Moreover, this aligns perfectly with Binotto's supposed performance philosophy. The SF90 had tremendous peak performance, yet struggled significantly in race trim. Even the engine exhibited superior power output compared to the competition in qualifying, but the advantage narrowed considerably during races.

What do you think about this?

I understand why you keep making correlation between two cars, but it was just different situations leading to the same end result. I've given my view of the situation with SF23 to dialtone the other day:

In hindsight, Vasseur had the worst thing happen, he inherited a bad car and had to iron out everything inside the team and out towards the public. Their statements were reserved and collected, they said they have work to do during pre season test. Saying the car matches the sim data is only good as long as sim data is good, and looking back at 2023 team thread I didn't find them saying that. Only media speculation. Both drivers had a poor body language, as they understood the reality but no one is gonna admit how tough things are.

The worst that happened last year was the grand launch and Vigna saying the car is "unprecedented in terms of speed" whatever that was supposed to mean. There was great pressure from Vigna to deliver both Championships and everyone in the team seemingly knew it wasn't going to happen. Sanchez was going out, a few more people, later Mekies as well. Those who stayed put their heads down and made a great recovery from scratch.

The statements are now more positive, but fairly realistic - the car is much better than starting position last year, it does everything like it should and we want to fight for wins. That last part simply has to be said when driving for Ferrari, otherwise the whole Italy will start knocking on your door

Actually it was his fault directly. He insisted the primary goal must be to reduce drag a lot and increase downforce and he wanted to see the numbers that said so. This was somewhere around summer 22 sa far as I understood. Binotto strongly disagreed, as did Sanchez and this was one of the biggest reason for those break ups, or the final drop as they say... Guess this is why we are now seeing and hearing a lot more of Elkann, while Vigna is snubbed.

Yes, if you want to cut drag by reducing outwash and lower the floor roof to make more downforce you get the same thing Mercedes did with W13. From my understanding, this is what knowingly ended up happening after engineers were forced to show required results. A team that was so good with the car a year ago can't go so much back on its own, there's always an idiotic external influence, it took me a while to reconcile that

What happened after Bahrain is they switched to fully developing (the already started) Evo program shown in Barcelona and I guess Vasseur made sure Elkann fully understood the engineering team can't get pressured into fulfilling external wishes from non-motorsport personnel. Ever again I hope. They had a lot of re-learning to do, but basically even the first Evo package was an improvement after they got the setup right and every update later really was an improvement. Front wing design heavily influenced inherited understeer and only with Japan floor update was that bit ironed out slightly.

This is my best understanding on how a great 22 car evolved into one-lap wonder in 23, from some people close to the team and what we got to read in the press (speculation and factual reports equally). SF23 had this one lap pace when being pushed on the absolute edge, which was completely unsustainable in races since both the setup wasn't allowing this and the inherit rear end instability kept showing up. This ruined tyres more quickly, which forced them to slow down late in the stint (early in the season this was pronounced the most) which further degraded the aero.




Like we said last year - heavy car can't corner as fast which takes away aero load, which takes away suspension compression, which takes away low ride height, which takes away aero load even further.

Yeah, i've read your posts. While i agree that Vigna probably did indeed interfere with the Team management, i don't think he directly set the development direction for the SF 23.
Moreover, the reason Binotto was fired, in my opinion, is mainly related to how he (didn't) managed the drivers in 2022. It has been reported that after Silverstone Leclerc didn't go to the post race meeting and went back to Monaco directly without even going to Maranello despite being scheduled to do so. Binotto had to set up a dinner with him in Monaco, apparently behind Elkann suggestion. I strongly believe that Leclerc wanted Binotto out and probably forced the hand with Elkann who didn't like him in the first place.

Unfortunately we'll never know the truth about the SF 23. Maybe in 10–15 years

[bagajohny]

Is it true SF-24 reported lap time faster by 8 tenths than last year at Fiorano track?

I think wrong thread, but according to this article yes http://www.ss9modena.it/2024/02/14/la-s ... lla-sf-23/

This is the first time I am seeing this news website. How reliable is it? or are there other credible sources that say similar thing?

[Xyz22]

Is it true SF-24 reported lap time faster by 8 tenths than last year at Fiorano track?

I think wrong thread, but according to this article yes http://www.ss9modena.it/2024/02/14/la-s ... lla-sf-23/

This is the first time I am seeing this news website. How reliable is it? or are there other credible sources that say similar thing?

The source is still Alessandro Stefanini. Ex Autosprint journalist and he was in Fiorano.

The car they ended the season with will have lapped .8 faster (probably more) than the one at the start, so the number is meaningless really.

These laptimes don't mean anything because so many things can change from the two sessions :

- Track surface
- Weather (Temperature, etc.)
- Demo tyres

Having said that, i don't think that end of the season SF 23 was 0.8s better in pure performance than the SF 23 launch spec. The ultimate peak performance of the SF 23 in qualifying didn't change much through the season.

[AR3-GP]

Having said that, i don't think that end of the season SF 23 was 0.8s better in pure performance than the SF 23 launch spec. The ultimate peak performance of the SF 23 in qualifying didn't change much through the season.

It got faster relative to itself though considering that they were able to keep up with RB in qualy (generally), and RB got faster throughout the season. Leclerc would have been close to pole in Bahrain on a 2nd run, and then was only 1 tenth off pole in Abu Dhabi at the end of the year. It shows Ferrari improved.

[Vanja #66]

Mercedes did somehow manage to have very good tire wear with the W13, though.

Did it really? Check out degradation in early races And later check how much slower they got before Barcelona upgrade, so they could run longer (without stressing tyres so much)

Although this was not at all the point of my posts, W13 was deeply troublesome on many fronts, so they decided to set it up so it treats the tyres well and were likely hoping for problems up front to pick up the odd podium...

Yeah, i've read your posts. While i agree that Vigna probably did indeed interfere with the Team management, i don't think he directly set the development direction for the SF 23.

You may have misunderstood me. Both of those events are facts, not opinions. I think Andi76 also confirmed it in 2023 thread

[CouncilorIrissa]

Mercedes did somehow manage to have very good tire wear with the W13, though.

Did it really? Check out degradation in early races And later check how much slower they got before Barcelona upgrade, so they could run longer (without stressing tyres so much)

Although this was not at all the point of my posts, W13 was deeply troublesome on many fronts, so they decided to set it up so it treats the tyres well and were likely hoping for problems up front to pick up the odd podium...

Yeah, i've read your posts. While i agree that Vigna probably did indeed interfere with the Team management, i don't think he directly set the development direction for the SF 23.

You may have misunderstood me. Both of those events are facts, not opinions. I think Andi76 also confirmed it in 2023 thread

I definitely remember them getting better as the stint went on, something I haven't seen from Ferrari cars since god knows when

Going back to Ferrari, what was it exactly about SF23 design that suggested it had less outwash than its predecessor? FW design? Sidepod inlets?

[Vanja #66]

I definitely remember them getting better as the stint went on, something I haven't seen from Ferrari cars since god knows when

You can use this to check out every race lap times since 2018 I think, maybe it refreshes your memory on how Vegas and Abu Dhabi races went for Leclerc compared to Max

https://www.f1-tempo.com/

Going back to Ferrari, what was it exactly about SF23 design that suggested it had less outwash than its predecessor? FW design? Sidepod inlets?

You can find more details here, all in one place --> viewtopic.php?p=1111320#p1111320

[jambuka]

Any predictions where will SF-24 be in the peking order after Bahrain test?

[dialtone]

I don’t even care about winning the championship, I just want to see a healthy team honestly. Good at in season development, no major strategy mistakes and mostly issue free pit stops, not the fastest but around the top 3.

[Vanja #66]

I think narrow triangular pod is quite nice complementary feature. Sidepods are bulbous anyway... Why dont use this free volume anyway.

It sure does feel like Ferrari, RB and also McLaren (launch spec MCL36 was also wide) figured out way ago in 2021 during early concept development that wide sidepods will essentially become new barge boards in terms of top side aero development.