2024 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 28 - 30

[venkyhere]

Someone has come up with comparative videos of what I was trying to convey above.
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/s/HJtoTKhzYM

As we can see, 'anticipation' and 'let me use the full track width, it's just inside tyres that's going to matter, not outside ones' awareness is something NOR has to improve upon. He ended up being a sitting duck to an aggressive late door close (or 'crowding' as it seems to be called). Doesn't justify what VER did, but 'learning to avoid a torpedo' is an invaluable skill.

I didn't even pay attention to how much space Norris had on the outside, thanks for sharing. He knowingly stuck to his line to cause a contact, bet he didn't have an idea how bad it would end for him. Max broke the rules for switching back under braking several times, but in this situation both drivers are equally to blame for that contact, no doubt.

In road traffic, you are required to do everything you can to avoid an incident, which is why people brake hard and get on the horn so much. In racing, you stick to your line knowing it can cause a contact - you find out. Hitting Max with front wing afterwards was also a bit too much in my view

Glad that atleast one person is following what I meant. But I wouldn't call it 'both are equally to blame'. NOR is not at fault - far from it. He was naive.

[RonMexico]

Someone has come up with comparative videos of what I was trying to convey above.
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/s/HJtoTKhzYM

As we can see, 'anticipation' and 'let me use the full track width, it's just inside tyres that's going to matter, not outside ones' awareness is something NOR has to improve upon. He ended up being a sitting duck to an aggressive late door close (or 'crowding' as it seems to be called). Doesn't justify what VER did, but 'learning to avoid a torpedo' is an invaluable skill.

That's called "victim blaming". Lando has every right to be where he is. Max needs to learn not to drive in to people. Sadly, Horner's "let them race" mantra has created the situation where Max has been allowed to do this sort of thing and has never learned to race cleanly. And when he's faced with someone who isn't going to play his games, the result is as it was on Sunday. We're told that Max has matured, well now is the time for him to prove it by improving his driving around others in these situations.

Mate... no one is denying that Max behaved like a headless chicken. People who are trying to defend his actions yesterday are orangearmy/blindfans/people with no understanding of racing, who are in hopium-copium mode.

I'm talking about 'cleverness to safeguard against getting hit, when there is room to do so'. It's not victim blaming. Wasn't saying 'NOR should have been wider' , I meant 'NOR could have been wider for his own sake' take. He is going to win championships, "how to fight at the front with nasty drivers" is something that can only come with battle experience. If indeed he was going for an over-under move by going outside, the more skillful thing to do would have been to place wider and brake earlier and let the inside guy understeer, as the second video in that reddit video showed.

I never really got this idea that Verstappen is like a headless chicken in the same way you would see moments of wildness from Vettel for example. He is the ultimate hard racer and clearly it affects those who try to overtake him, barring Leclerc and probably Hamilton.

[El_KaPpa]

All video shows Verstappen heading for the apex in the braking zone by turning right. Then when Norris tries to overtake on the outside, Verstappen switches direction just before the apex, moving left under braking to squeeze him. That kind of move under braking isn't allowed by the rules. There's no rocket science here.

[DDopey]

All video shows Verstappen heading for the apex in the braking zone by turning right. Then when Norris tries to overtake on the outside, Verstappen switches direction just before the apex, moving left under braking to squeeze him. That kind of move under braking isn't allowed by the rules. There's no rocket science here.

I was also of that opinion, but looking again at the onboards after Windsor said Max was driving in a straight line he is actually correct. The steering to the left happened 1.5 seconds before that. It still was Max his fault as the result was that Norris got squeezed. It is a bit sad that the Max hate brigade is exploiting this minor incident (with big consequences) and meanwhile turning a blind eye to actions like running someone off into the grass.

[bluechris]

All video shows Verstappen heading for the apex in the braking zone by turning right. Then when Norris tries to overtake on the outside, Verstappen switches direction just before the apex, moving left under braking to squeeze him. That kind of move under braking isn't allowed by the rules. There's no rocket science here.

I was also of that opinion, but looking again at the onboards after Windsor said Max was driving in a straight line he is actually correct. The steering to the left happened 1.5 seconds before that. It still was Max his fault as the result was that Norris got squeezed. It is a bit sad that the Max hate brigade is exploiting this minor incident (with big consequences) and meanwhile turning a blind eye to actions like running someone off into the grass.

rewatch the replay, he clearly closes to the left. I dont say he did that deliberately because the track in there has opposite inclination but its clearly shown. Offcourse Lando could had avoid it if he went a bit to the left like what Max did with Sainz the previous year but this joke of moving in braking must stop some how.

[DChemTech]

All video shows Verstappen heading for the apex in the braking zone by turning right. Then when Norris tries to overtake on the outside, Verstappen switches direction just before the apex, moving left under braking to squeeze him. That kind of move under braking isn't allowed by the rules. There's no rocket science here.

I was also of that opinion, but looking again at the onboards after Windsor said Max was driving in a straight line he is actually correct. The steering to the left happened 1.5 seconds before that. It still was Max his fault as the result was that Norris got squeezed. It is a bit sad that the Max hate brigade is exploiting this minor incident (with big consequences) and meanwhile turning a blind eye to actions like running someone off into the grass.

Indeed, the motion was well before braking started. I saw some people noting "but then one could brake, lift, turn and brake again and claim they did not move under braking" - but that's a strawman argument. Lifting after braking started is something different than lifting before braking at all.
The issue is indeed that Max could be said to be crowding Lando, but it seems there is still quite a bit of room on the left - it's far from running Lando off the road. At first I thought the collision was due to Lando turning in while Max wasn't turning yet, but that also does not seem to be so. In the end, it seems a racing incident.

[bluechris]

All video shows Verstappen heading for the apex in the braking zone by turning right. Then when Norris tries to overtake on the outside, Verstappen switches direction just before the apex, moving left under braking to squeeze him. That kind of move under braking isn't allowed by the rules. There's no rocket science here.

I was also of that opinion, but looking again at the onboards after Windsor said Max was driving in a straight line he is actually correct. The steering to the left happened 1.5 seconds before that. It still was Max his fault as the result was that Norris got squeezed. It is a bit sad that the Max hate brigade is exploiting this minor incident (with big consequences) and meanwhile turning a blind eye to actions like running someone off into the grass.

Indeed, the motion was well before braking started. I saw some people noting "but then one could brake, lift, turn and brake again and claim they did not move under braking" - but that's a strawman argument. Lifting after braking started is something different than lifting before braking at all.
The issue is indeed that Max could be said to be crowding Lando, but it seems there is still quite a bit of room on the left - it's far from running Lando off the road. At first I thought the collision was due to Lando turning in while Max wasn't turning yet, but that also does not seem to be so. In the end, it seems a racing incident.

When someone hits you because he goes left on you, its not racing incident at all. There is no point discussing if Lando was able to avoid it. Imagine the same thing with Lando in the middle of the track and Max from the right going left on Lando, again its Max fault.

[chrisc90]

What would people have said if max stuck his nose alongside in Spain at the start and lando moved over? Racing incident or would it be causing a collision?

[Vanja #66]

Glad that atleast one person is following what I meant. But I wouldn't call it 'both are equally to blame'. NOR is not at fault - far from it. He was naive.

If you have room to move from a car approaching you and you don't - what can you expect to happen?

[Hoffman900]

What would people have said if max stuck his nose alongside in Spain at the start and lando moved over? Racing incident or would it be causing a collision?

Causing a collision.

Why are you even trying to play the straw man argument anyway?

Max caused a wreck with Lando, and has caused many before, and everyone around him enables it. He’s a petulant child, albeit a talented one, but still one.

[taperoo2k]

On Lando. My opinion if he can really make a title winning campaign is making me lean into the " No " camp. Last 4 outings he should of capitalised on at LEAST one of them. The fact he didn't should start raising questions, yes its a small sample size but he's not making the most of this race winning pace of the mclaren. Lando is a great driver but Max is a elite one

Silverstone will be fascinating as i feel the cars will be matched there and Mercedes looking to capitalise again.

Lando hasn't been in an F1 title fight before, so this is a learning experience for him. He might well decide to go about attacking Max in a different way going forwards. The thing that detracts from Max being truly great is his abysmal defending. He expects other drivers to get out of his way, and if they crash it's the other drivers fault. He simply cracks under pressure when he's got a faster car chasing him down. He's not learned anything because the FIA haven't punished him properly when it's been appropriate to do so. To be truly elite he should have learned how to defend properly by now and not risk crashes. He was lucky yesterday that he didn't take himself out of the race. What I found most egregious was Max trying to shove Lando onto the grass after the crash.

As for the moving under braking rule? That was an unwritten rule before Max came along. It's not been policed well enough by the FIA, across the grid. Silverstone should be an entertaining race.

If Max has got both McLarens breathing down his neck? I guess we'll have a lot more to talk about next weekend.

[Matt2725]

Like Michael Schumacher, and Ayrton Senna before him, Max is too talented and fast to be resorting to this stuff.

Is he?

Whenever he's had to fight for position, he ultimately resorts to bumper cars. He looks great in a car much faster than the rest, but his racecraft leaves a lot to be desired.

[basti313]

Lando hasn't been in an F1 title fight before, so this is a learning experience for him. He might well decide to go about attacking Max in a different way going forwards.

Aha...how? He tried it inside, he tried outside, he did not have the straight line speed due to the Honda deployment strategy to go at it into T4...
Not really sure what you think he should do...

The thing that detracts from Max being truly great is his abysmal defending.

Well, Max was the winner of all of this, right? It was 10 points for Max, 0 for Lando. Did you miss this? It is already Monday.
It simply is completely irrelevant if someone likes his driving, he will win the championship with it.

Actually he should put one of this sticker on his wing: "How's my driving? Call ....."

He expects other drivers to get out of his way, and if they crash it's the other drivers fault.

He? Who is "he"? Every F1 driver? Because this is how it usually looks like. You had just a few laps later the battles of Sai vs. Pia and Hul vs. Per where each time someone had to get out of the way of the other one...

He simply cracks under pressure when he's got a faster car chasing him down. He's not learned anything because the FIA haven't punished him properly when it's been appropriate to do so. To be truly elite he should have learned how to defend properly by now and not risk crashes. He was lucky yesterday that he didn't take himself out of the race.

Again: You know that Ver is the winner of the shunt?

What I found most egregious was Max trying to shove Lando onto the grass after the crash.

Same nonsense as the front wing contact. After the first touch both were busy keeping the things somehow on the track. While Lando had to go on to the gras you can see Max looking at his steering wheel dialing his diff settings and moving to the right away from the racing line. Where Lando was he could not even see him early enough.
Speak about the crash and not try to file nonsense accusations.

[kalinka]

Oh...I get it so Silverstone 2021...Hamilton was the winner of the shunt...nothing to talk about...get over it. I like your thinking.

[venkyhere]

I never really got this idea that Verstappen is like a headless chicken in the same way you would see moments of wildness from Vettel for example. He is the ultimate hard racer and clearly it affects those who try to overtake him, barring Leclerc and probably Hamilton.

- Dad v/s team (Horner)
- Marko (mentor) v/s Horner
- constant questions in media 'when are you leaving' where TotoWolff provides the fodder
- Unexplainable behavior of the car that suddenly loses grip as fuel load comes off
- Botched pit stop that deleted all the hard work that went into creating that 7-8s gap
- Knowledge that the dogfight has to be used v/s new tyres, that too when the car seems to have lost grip alongwith fuel.

The pressure is immense. He is human afterall, no matter what professionalism or training we are talking about, the nut will eventually crack, no matter how hard it is, when all the mitigating circumstances converge together. The consummate professional will suddenly disappear and a petulant child running like headless chicken will appear out of nowhere. He drove like a 17yr old rookie, rather than a 3 time WDC winner. What would he have lost, if he finished P2 ? Just 7 points, which is nothing in the big scheme of things for this year. As I mentioned earlier, Zidane is the closest example I can think of - always seemed to handle pressure very well, until the moment(s) the brain snapped.

This is what makes racing interesting, the human element, no matter how much technology is stuffed into it. Who makes what kind of decisions, when. Otherwise we can have AI bots racing each other - it's far easier than we think - closed circuit, clearly demarcation of tarmac with runoff, very easily identifiable marker points for braking and turning (100m board, structural elements and barriers at specific points) - an image based self driving AI algorithm has a far easier job to do in an F1 race, than what it has to do on a public road in a Tesla. (will anyone even watch such a robot-race ? I guess no one).