2024 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 28 - 30

[cheeRS]

Yeah, I'm going to need to see a reference from the rules that indicate what you're said is correct. In any case, Max didn't leave a car's width nor did he allow Norris car to stay on track without slamming into him.

I can't prove that a non-existant rule doesn't exist. You might want to show us a rule that says that you have to leave a cars width - or some recent precedent that says that.

The overtaking guidelines use the expression "while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.". Remaining within the limits of the track just requires the car to keep one wheel on the white lines, although they use the word "clearly", which means you are likely not entitled to push someone to the limit.

Now of course, if there's a collision, the amount of space a driver leaves can of course be one of the deciding factor, when the stewards determines who is (predominantly) to blame for the collision. But there's no hard and fast rule for "1 cars width" anymore, and as the video example i posted with Bottas and Stroll shows, it's perfectly possible to not leave a cars width and have the other guy take the blame.

The Bottas/Stroll example is almost completely irrelevant and not an apples:apples comparison. I won't get into it too much, but it has to do with a driver choosing to go off track vs. one that didn't and got slammed into. If Bottas held his line and got hit by Stroll, it would have been more relevant. Anyway.

What you're arguing about the "1 car's width" not being in the rules is splitting hairs and you're ignoring the interpretation of the rules. By definition if you've forced someone off track OR you've slammed into them while they're on the edge of the track, you haven't left a car's width. It's cut and dry, there is no argument to be made, and unfortunately there is only one type of fan that is trying to argue otherwise, and I don't mean that personally, it's just that it's delusional to see it any other way.

[AR3-GP]

The start. Norris squeezes Russell in the brake zone. Russell avoids a collision by going off track. 


 
 

[polesetter]

I don’t understand why people are spending hours to discuss who’s at fault, while Norris could have easily avoided the whole situation and score more than 0 points.

Norris pushed Russel off. Norris pushed Verstappen off last Race at the Start. And i’m sure a lot of other drivers did the same thing on some point. No one is an angel in Formula 1.
Norris should think about how to be smarter in those Situations and not argue about the rules while his competitors take the Points.

[Hoffman900]

The start. Norris squeezes Russell in the brake zone. Russell avoids a collision by going off track. 

https://i.postimg.cc/50j7W95t/Norris-sq ... nboard.gif
 
 
https://i.postimg.cc/TPt7s5DS/Norris-sq ... ussell.gif

For the millionth time, THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT.

[AR3-GP]

The start. Norris squeezes Russell in the brake zone. Russell avoids a collision by going off track. 

https://i.postimg.cc/50j7W95t/Norris-sq ... nboard.gif
 
 
https://i.postimg.cc/TPt7s5DS/Norris-sq ... ussell.gif

For the millionth time, THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT.

I have simply posted a replay of an event during the Austrian GP, in the Austrian GP race thread. Why are you shouting and where did I suggest right or wrong?

[Mattchu]

The start. Norris squeezes Russell in the brake zone. Russell avoids a collision by going off track. 

So what!

If Russell holds his line straight and Norris moves accross and causes a collision, you`d hope Norris gets a penalty!

I give up...

[Hoffman900]

Also, the argument that Lando has less experience at the front.

Lando has much more racing experience and success in hard fought spec junior / feeder open wheel series than Max does.

[Hoffman900]

^ this isn’t NASCAR. If that’s what you want, I suggest you watch that.

The stewards not following their own rules? Where have we heard that one before…

[JordanMugen]

Remaining within the limits of the track just requires the car to keep one wheel on the white lines, although they use the word "clearly",

It is very unlikely that the intention of the rule is to permit the car on the track to push the other car to have all but part of one wheel on the grass. For obvious reasons, that can cause a large accident as there is no traction on the grass.

Where circuits have tarmac or kerb beyond the white line instead of grass or gravel or a barrier is irrelevant.

It's true that Norris pushed Verstappen to go "rallying" in Spain at the start, by the letter of the rules Norris should have been penalised for that as squeezing people towards the grass and/or pit wall (if there is a pitwall immediately adjacent to the white line, like on a street circuit) is extremely dangerous.

[Mattchu]

So what!

It's the Austrian GP race thread and I shared something that happened. You can't tell others what to post about, per Hollus.

And you had no ulterior motive!

I never told you what you can or cannot post, post whatever you like as far as I`m concerned...

Although you said "You can't quote a poster and argue that they have stated something which hasn't been said. It's misleading for other readers."

I`ll ask one question though, either a yes or no answer. Do you think the stewards were correct in awarding Max Verstappen a penalty for causing a collision?

[TFSA]

Remaining within the limits of the track just requires the car to keep one wheel on the white lines, although they use the word "clearly",

It is very unlikely that the intention of the rule is to permit the car on the track to push the other car to have all but part of one wheel on the grass. For obvious reasons, that can cause a large accident as there is no traction on the grass.

Where circuits have tarmac or kerb beyond the white line instead of grass or gravel or a barrier is irrelevant.

It's true that Norris pushed Verstappen to go "rallying" in Spain at the start, by the letter of the rules Norris should have been penalised for that as squeezing people towards the grass and/or pit wall (if there is a pitwall immediately adjacent to the white line, like on a street circuit) is extremely dangerous.

We've seen drivers get away with incidents similar to this, because there was no damage (even if they touched). I've always been very critical of people claiming that stewards are penalizing the outcome, but i gotta admit I'm slowly starting to warm to it.

So the point here is that I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. No, you're unlikely to be blame-free if you just leave just enough of a gap so the other driver can keep one wheel on the white line. But we've definitely seen enough to conclude that the "cars width" rule doesn't apply in general. Most of the time when drivers squeeze like that, nothing is done about it. It's only when collisions happen (which they rarely do), that the stewards sometimes do something about it. This makes it impossible for us (the public) to actually figure out what the standard actually is.

I came across this Reddit-post which i think explains my thoughts pretty well:






In addition, and just for greater context for the race/battle a Reddit-poster did some analysis of each incident in their battle, lap by lap, which i also think is pretty good. Linked below, because it's long, and i don't want it to take up too much screen space here:
PICTURE / Reddit Link

[Dee]

Remaining within the limits of the track just requires the car to keep one wheel on the white lines, although they use the word "clearly",

It is very unlikely that the intention of the rule is to permit the car on the track to push the other car to have all but part of one wheel on the grass. For obvious reasons, that can cause a large accident as there is no traction on the grass.

Where circuits have tarmac or kerb beyond the white line instead of grass or gravel or a barrier is irrelevant.

It's true that Norris pushed Verstappen to go "rallying" in Spain at the start, by the letter of the rules Norris should have been penalised for that as squeezing people towards the grass and/or pit wall (if there is a pitwall immediately adjacent to the white line, like on a street circuit) is extremely dangerous.

We've seen drivers get away with incidents similar to this, because there was no damage (even if they touched). I've always been very critical of people claiming that stewards are penalizing the outcome, but i gotta admit I'm slowly starting to warm to it.

So the point here is that I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. No, you're unlikely to be blame-free if you just leave just enough of a gap so the other driver can keep one wheel on the white line. But we've definitely seen enough to conclude that the "cars width" rule doesn't apply in general. Most of the time when drivers squeeze like that, nothing is done about it. It's only when collisions happen (which they rarely do), that the stewards sometimes do something about it. This makes it impossible for us (the public) to actually figure out what the standard actually is.

I came across this Reddit-post which i think explains my thoughts pretty well:

https://i.imgur.com/dx0Db43.png




In addition, this Reddit-poster did some analysis of each incident their battle (PICTURE instead of Reddit Link here), lap by lap, which i also think is pretty good. Decided to only link the picture here, because it would take up too much space on the forum. But i think it's a good summary of the battle as a whole.

That reddit post is dead on, racing is squeezing another driver up on the curbs if you have position. Nothing Max did was different to what has been done in that corner since the circuit was built.

[Tvetovnato]

You are also entitled to stand up to a bouncer, but advisable not to.....

This seems to be a pointless circular argument!

Verstappen doesn't care if they crashed, Norris doesn't care if they crash -- so they crashed. It was amusing and Russell was most pleased to win.

What's the big deal?

Where did Norris say he didn’t care if they crashed?

[AR3-GP]

I`ll ask one question though, either a yes or no answer. Do you think the stewards were correct in awarding Max Verstappen a penalty for causing a collision?

https://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewt ... 0#p1227930

[Just_a_fan]

 
What people are forgetting that in the run up to turn 3,  you actually have the kerb as part of the track.   

See, that's where you're wrong as soon as you start your comment. The white line is the edge of the track. The kerbs are not the track.

Lando was on track, Max drove in to him.

Max has usually succeeded with these moves but every now and then it doesn't work. Then, because he's been allowed to get away with it so often, he is unable to put his hand up and apologise.

I hope Lando stops being besties with Max on track from here on. Max needs to know he can't bully his rivals like this or he'll just keep doing it.