2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

[PapayaFan481]

but what does "do what they can to help him win a title" actually mean.
So far as I am aware, through the history of Mclaren, equal status drivers means that it requires an agreement with the team and both drivers before one of they will act in a supporting roll to the other. That was certainly the situation with DC and Mika - exactly what is was between Hamilton and Alonso Im not sure in 2007 as it was Hamiltons rookie season ... but given events on the track one has to assume that was the case there too.
So the question becomes, what will Oscar do. In his situation, I wouldn't be moving over for Norris with 8 races to go - that's a 1/3rd of a season where he takes on a no 2 status - and that becomes a hard mentality to change within the team.
What Norris did in Hungary wont have help the trust between them either. Oscar was pretty pissed looking at him after race

I think Stella has to sit down with Oscar and Webber and look at the cold hard facts. The chances of Lando winning the WDC are slim, but it is doable. The chances of Oscar winning it this year are, frankly, near zero.

Oscar should take a supporting role for the remainder of this season and in return he knows the team will give him the same service if positions are reversed in the future, which there is a good chance they might be.

F1 is first and foremost a team sport and while teams might like to pretend the WCC matters, for the average or casual viewer it is the WDC that counts.

There is absolutely no guarantee that McLaren are in the title hunt next season, though I hope they are, so it is only common sense to give it everything this season.

And reading between the lines of statements made by the team and Oscar, I think that is what is going to happen.

[BMMR61]

Hoping most of the heat has gone out of this little exchange......

My honest-to-God statement is I am a big fan of both our drivers and everything about the team, except the strategist(s) who really suck. They have cost McLaren more than Lando's mistakes. Lando has made quite a few mistakes and I'm not talking about his silly admissions he could have been on pole etc. He has had a narrow superiority in qualifying that the accumulated time differences can show, run most cases the difference between the two has been of the order of 0.1.

Oscar has shown flashes of pace from the beginning but is now gaining these flashes more often. Where he is clearly superior to Lando is in mind control and accuracy of race craft, especially overtaking, where he is one of the best on the grid. There are still a number here who remain unconvinced by him which I find completely extraordinary, but there you go. He of the current grid is the natural successor to Max in my opinion with Charles and Lando next closest. When you have two of the most exciting drivers in your team and you're no longer fighting for merely 4ths and 5ths there will be tension. Andrea is the right sort of level head to keep this tension as controlled as is possible. The tension works in both directions and using the bluntest of team orders at this early stage of the season is a recipe for breakdown of the team.

[BMMR61]

but what does "do what they can to help him win a title" actually mean.
So far as I am aware, through the history of Mclaren, equal status drivers means that it requires an agreement with the team and both drivers before one of they will act in a supporting roll to the other. That was certainly the situation with DC and Mika - exactly what is was between Hamilton and Alonso Im not sure in 2007 as it was Hamiltons rookie season ... but given events on the track one has to assume that was the case there too.
So the question becomes, what will Oscar do. In his situation, I wouldn't be moving over for Norris with 8 races to go - that's a 1/3rd of a season where he takes on a no 2 status - and that becomes a hard mentality to change within the team.
What Norris did in Hungary wont have help the trust between them either. Oscar was pretty pissed looking at him after race

I think Stella has to sit down with Oscar and Webber and look at the cold hard facts. The chances of Lando winning the WDC are slim, but it is doable. The chances of Oscar winning it this year are, frankly, near zero.

Oscar should take a supporting role for the remainder of this season and in return he knows the team will give him the same service if positions are reversed in the future, which there is a good chance they might be.

F1 is first and foremost a team sport and while teams might like to pretend the WCC matters, for the average or casual viewer it is the WDC that counts.

There is absolutely no guarantee that McLaren are in the title hunt next season, though I hope they are, so it is only common sense to give it everything this season.

And reading between the lines of statements made by the team and Oscar, I think that is what is going to happen.

Yeah well what do all us know? I know that demoting a driver to number two is likely to have long term negative consequences for that driver, not just for the season that he has to defer. The competitive spirit is what makes champions and if you do anything that dampens that, it risks a career. Lando has it all in his hands, if he is good enough. When he had a mathematically better chance of beating Max, (round 12) nobody was suggesting Oscar become his bitch. Suddenly at Hungary everyone is making outrageous statements regarding the car (dominant) and Lando (has a good chance of WDC).

It's amusing to see how hysteria grips certain people - when a groundswell emerges, many jump on it. I think there is a case for two contradictory statements....
1. Lando needs to win nearly all the rest of the races to be WDC and therefore the chances are fairly slim
2. The RedBull has become so difficult to get in the window that Lando just has to keep finishing on the podium, preferably wins and he should be WDC.

Either of those is realistic yet they predict different outcomes. The reality is it's still Max's to lose.

[mwillems]

It's not about that at all. It's about whether Lando deserves certain status within the team and the benefits that come with it.

That is what it should be about and for some posters it is what it is about, however there are literally pages of the same handful of people having the same circular argument. It's spoiling the forum!!

That's just part and parcel of a forum when it gets on to a subject that many are passionate about. Its fairly rare in here now, but the conversation about drivers performance had been coming to a head.

[mclaren111]

What a Difference...

[mwillems]

It's not about that at all. It's about whether Lando deserves certain status within the team and the benefits that come with it.

This is where it all becomes a bit nuanced. Should Lando be the number 1 driver, no. It's not how the team, currently operates. Should they do what they can do to help him win a title, yes. Which I think should be obvious.

Issue going forward is, if both drivers are so evenly matched, and I wouldn't expect that to change, will having them as joint team leaders make it harder to win a drivers title.

Based on all recent title winners, the answer is probably yes. Wins are mainly by lead drivers, apart from Rosberg.

But..Ferrari will have joint lead drivers next year, and Merc will have 2x number two drivers.

Which probably means Verstappen wins next year by my own calculations.

From my perspective it wasn't about that either. Felt like this place needed a robust discussion as some of the reasonings and assessments were based on who you like and not how they performed.

[Ben1980]

but what does "do what they can to help him win a title" actually mean.
So far as I am aware, through the history of Mclaren, equal status drivers means that it requires an agreement with the team and both drivers before one of they will act in a supporting roll to the other. That was certainly the situation with DC and Mika - exactly what is was between Hamilton and Alonso Im not sure in 2007 as it was Hamiltons rookie season ... but given events on the track one has to assume that was the case there too.
So the question becomes, what will Oscar do. In his situation, I wouldn't be moving over for Norris with 8 races to go - that's a 1/3rd of a season where he takes on a no 2 status - and that becomes a hard mentality to change within the team.
What Norris did in Hungary wont have help the trust between them either. Oscar was pretty pissed looking at him after race

If behind, and an agreement is to not attack. It happens pretty regularly in most teams, including Mclaren.

Give Lando the optimum strategy, to keep or maintain points.

It doesn't have to be let him through, that may never be the case. Or it may be swap on last lap, if Oscar cannot get the leader or whoever is in front.

As said, I do think they will say hold station at least on the first lap, though that's probably to protect t the team rather than a driver.

[Ben1980]

Hoping most of the heat has gone out of this little exchange......

My honest-to-God statement is I am a big fan of both our drivers and everything about the team, except the strategist(s) who really suck. They have cost McLaren more than Lando's mistakes. Lando has made quite a few mistakes and I'm not talking about his silly admissions he could have been on pole etc. He has had a narrow superiority in qualifying that the accumulated time differences can show, run most cases the difference between the two has been of the order of 0.1.

Oscar has shown flashes of pace from the beginning but is now gaining these flashes more often. Where he is clearly superior to Lando is in mind control and accuracy of race craft, especially overtaking, where he is one of the best on the grid. There are still a number here who remain unconvinced by him which I find completely extraordinary, but there you go. He of the current grid is the natural successor to Max in my opinion with Charles and Lando next closest. When you have two of the most exciting drivers in your team and you're no longer fighting for merely 4ths and 5ths there will be tension. Andrea is the right sort of level head to keep this tension as controlled as is possible. The tension works in both directions and using the bluntest of team orders at this early stage of the season is a recipe for breakdown of the team.

What makes you think he is one of the best on the grid at overtaking?

Now, I am sure he is good, but I don't recall many big overtakes on rivals, bar the recent one on Lando. Has he been wheel to wheel with Max? He struggled against leclerc in Netherlands.

Now, he is good, but some of the opinions are pretty wild.

[Lucky]

Hoping most of the heat has gone out of this little exchange......

My honest-to-God statement is I am a big fan of both our drivers and everything about the team, except the strategist(s) who really suck. They have cost McLaren more than Lando's mistakes. Lando has made quite a few mistakes and I'm not talking about his silly admissions he could have been on pole etc. He has had a narrow superiority in qualifying that the accumulated time differences can show, run most cases the difference between the two has been of the order of 0.1.

Oscar has shown flashes of pace from the beginning but is now gaining these flashes more often. Where he is clearly superior to Lando is in mind control and accuracy of race craft, especially overtaking, where he is one of the best on the grid. There are still a number here who remain unconvinced by him which I find completely extraordinary, but there you go. He of the current grid is the natural successor to Max in my opinion with Charles and Lando next closest. When you have two of the most exciting drivers in your team and you're no longer fighting for merely 4ths and 5ths there will be tension. Andrea is the right sort of level head to keep this tension as controlled as is possible. The tension works in both directions and using the bluntest of team orders at this early stage of the season is a recipe for breakdown of the team.

Another inadequate deification of Oscar. Mexico 23 at least look at it, Oscar never dreamed of it.

[Big Gun]

No doubt Oscar is fast, but look at the Qualy head to head, Norris is the faster at Qualy. Whats worst for Oscar is that not only does Norris have the slight edge in qualy, but more importantly Norris has better race pace and tire management. I find Oscar overrated, the media keep saying that he is caught Norris and the big question is can Norris stay with him etc it nonsense. I dont think Oscar will fully catch up to Norris.
I find Oscar more in the Sainz level, eg good at qualy and close to Lecerc, but falls away from Lecerc in race pace.

IMO if the 2 old boys Hamilton and Oldonso were driving this years Mclaren despite their age, I think they would have more wins and more points than Norris, plus there is no chance either of the oldboys let Oscar pass them on the outside of turn 1 at Monza...

If i was the Team Boss, I'd make Norris the number 1 driver for the rest of the year. In that situation Oscars job is to out qualy and be ahead of Norris in the race (until team orders) to prove that he is no number 2.

[BMMR61]

There's a lot of people who seem to think it's folly not to have team orders. Here's a quick roll call of championship teams which have successfully run two number one drivers who traded wins without it being an issue.
1967 Hulme and Brabham
1978 Andretti and Peterson
1979 Schekter and Villeneuve
1980 Jones and Reuteman
1984 Lauda and Prost
1987 Piquet and Mansell
1988 Senna and Prost
1989 Prost and Senna
1996 Hill and Villeneuve
2009 Button and Barrichello
2010 Vettel and Webber (maybe this year only)
2014-16 Hamilton and Rosberg

You can talk about acrimonious team dynamics but if F1 really is a DRIVERS championship then let them sort it out!
Yeah Senna and Prost got pretty feisty as did Hamilton and Rosberg. Webber and Vettel had their moments but you had to point the finger at Horner and Marko for poor management.

If you want to go against "McLaren DNA" that's your opinion. In my opinion it's also a loser mentality as it alienates fans from the sport. At this point of the season there's many (including myself) who think Norris hasn't done enough to deserve the WDC, maybe in a few races time if he puts some good wins together that assessment may change. He's quick but fragile, he can do better if he gets his act together as he has a good car. I'm willing him on as I have every year since 2019.

[BMMR61]

Hoping most of the heat has gone out of this little exchange......

My honest-to-God statement is I am a big fan of both our drivers and everything about the team, except the strategist(s) who really suck. They have cost McLaren more than Lando's mistakes. Lando has made quite a few mistakes and I'm not talking about his silly admissions he could have been on pole etc. He has had a narrow superiority in qualifying that the accumulated time differences can show, run most cases the difference between the two has been of the order of 0.1.

Oscar has shown flashes of pace from the beginning but is now gaining these flashes more often. Where he is clearly superior to Lando is in mind control and accuracy of race craft, especially overtaking, where he is one of the best on the grid. There are still a number here who remain unconvinced by him which I find completely extraordinary, but there you go. He of the current grid is the natural successor to Max in my opinion with Charles and Lando next closest. When you have two of the most exciting drivers in your team and you're no longer fighting for merely 4ths and 5ths there will be tension. Andrea is the right sort of level head to keep this tension as controlled as is possible. The tension works in both directions and using the bluntest of team orders at this early stage of the season is a recipe for breakdown of the team.

Another inadequate deification of Oscar. Mexico 23 at least look at it, Oscar never dreamed of it.

You can do better than that. I attempt to assess everything objectively, I suggest you start by giving evidence to support your OPINION. Mexico 5th and 8th, your point is? Rookie v 5-season veteran. I'd have thought Lando's Zandvoort 2024 master class would have been your best chance to "deify" your hero! Cherry picking facts shows keenness to distort the picture to support an argument. There's some serious knowledge and wisdom on this forum - do you think you're adding to it with your blunt arguments? If you think I deify people and my writing is in some way "inadequate" then I have no further reason to engage in idle banter, mate!

[Lucky]

Hoping most of the heat has gone out of this little exchange......

My honest-to-God statement is I am a big fan of both our drivers and everything about the team, except the strategist(s) who really suck. They have cost McLaren more than Lando's mistakes. Lando has made quite a few mistakes and I'm not talking about his silly admissions he could have been on pole etc. He has had a narrow superiority in qualifying that the accumulated time differences can show, run most cases the difference between the two has been of the order of 0.1.

Oscar has shown flashes of pace from the beginning but is now gaining these flashes more often. Where he is clearly superior to Lando is in mind control and accuracy of race craft, especially overtaking, where he is one of the best on the grid. There are still a number here who remain unconvinced by him which I find completely extraordinary, but there you go. He of the current grid is the natural successor to Max in my opinion with Charles and Lando next closest. When you have two of the most exciting drivers in your team and you're no longer fighting for merely 4ths and 5ths there will be tension. Andrea is the right sort of level head to keep this tension as controlled as is possible. The tension works in both directions and using the bluntest of team orders at this early stage of the season is a recipe for breakdown of the team.

Another inadequate deification of Oscar. Mexico 23 at least look at it, Oscar never dreamed of it.

You can do better than that. I attempt to assess everything objectively, I suggest you start by giving evidence to support your OPINION. Mexico 5th and 8th, your point is? Rookie v 5-season veteran. I'd have thought Lando's Zandvoort 2024 master class would have been your best chance to "deify" your hero! Cherry picking facts shows keenness to distort the picture to support an argument. There's some serious knowledge and wisdom on this forum - do you think you're adding to it with your blunt arguments? If you think I deify people and my writing is in some way "inadequate" then I have no further reason to engage in idle banter, mate!

Only Norris started from 19th place, and Oscar from 7th

[BMMR61]

Hoping most of the heat has gone out of this little exchange......

My honest-to-God statement is I am a big fan of both our drivers and everything about the team, except the strategist(s) who really suck. They have cost McLaren more than Lando's mistakes. Lando has made quite a few mistakes and I'm not talking about his silly admissions he could have been on pole etc. He has had a narrow superiority in qualifying that the accumulated time differences can show, run most cases the difference between the two has been of the order of 0.1.

Oscar has shown flashes of pace from the beginning but is now gaining these flashes more often. Where he is clearly superior to Lando is in mind control and accuracy of race craft, especially overtaking, where he is one of the best on the grid. There are still a number here who remain unconvinced by him which I find completely extraordinary, but there you go. He of the current grid is the natural successor to Max in my opinion with Charles and Lando next closest. When you have two of the most exciting drivers in your team and you're no longer fighting for merely 4ths and 5ths there will be tension. Andrea is the right sort of level head to keep this tension as controlled as is possible. The tension works in both directions and using the bluntest of team orders at this early stage of the season is a recipe for breakdown of the team.

What makes you think he is one of the best on the grid at overtaking?

Now, I am sure he is good, but I don't recall many big overtakes on rivals, bar the recent one on Lando. Has he been wheel to wheel with Max? He struggled against leclerc in Netherlands.

Now, he is good, but some of the opinions are pretty wild.

Not being rude or dismissive as I believe you haven't noticed the great overtakes. Just in recent times I recall a great one on Leclerc at Spa, a couple at Austria, the turn one passes at Monza and Hungary. They were all finely judged, and not DRS dominant snoozers. But his entire F1 career is littered with them even if he was further back to get much TV time. And speaking no TV time his drive at Las Vegas from the back of the grid to 10th (incl FL) was lucklessly excellent.

Yes he has struggled a lot at different times, something to do with generation of tyre combined with the ground effect concept cars I believe but he's largely onto that now. People fail to recognise the Netherlands Leclerc thing was a matter of a fast Ferrari (well driven) whereas Max's Red Bull had a barn door rear wing which made him a sitting target so circumstance exaggerated the situation. Sure it was a sensationally dominant drive from Lando and hats off. Being an admirer of Mr Piastri doesn't mean one thinks less of Mr Norris, one of the exciting things about McLaren is it's drivers - both of them. Both excellent with different strengths and weaknesses, and especially different personalities.

My comment about Oscar being the natural successor to Max is his clinical, ruthless nature. When he discovers a weakness he appears to be able to quickly remedy it, he is learning very fast, which is something that disappoints me about Lando this year. I just think the balance of probability leans to Oscar having that higher ceiling many talk about, maybe not a lot higher but he just seems to have that capacity of the great drivers to deal with stuff in the heat of battle.

[Ben1980]

Hoping most of the heat has gone out of this little exchange......

My honest-to-God statement is I am a big fan of both our drivers and everything about the team, except the strategist(s) who really suck. They have cost McLaren more than Lando's mistakes. Lando has made quite a few mistakes and I'm not talking about his silly admissions he could have been on pole etc. He has had a narrow superiority in qualifying that the accumulated time differences can show, run most cases the difference between the two has been of the order of 0.1.

Oscar has shown flashes of pace from the beginning but is now gaining these flashes more often. Where he is clearly superior to Lando is in mind control and accuracy of race craft, especially overtaking, where he is one of the best on the grid. There are still a number here who remain unconvinced by him which I find completely extraordinary, but there you go. He of the current grid is the natural successor to Max in my opinion with Charles and Lando next closest. When you have two of the most exciting drivers in your team and you're no longer fighting for merely 4ths and 5ths there will be tension. Andrea is the right sort of level head to keep this tension as controlled as is possible. The tension works in both directions and using the bluntest of team orders at this early stage of the season is a recipe for breakdown of the team.

What makes you think he is one of the best on the grid at overtaking?

Now, I am sure he is good, but I don't recall many big overtakes on rivals, bar the recent one on Lando. Has he been wheel to wheel with Max? He struggled against leclerc in Netherlands.

Now, he is good, but some of the opinions are pretty wild.

Not being rude or dismissive as I believe you haven't noticed the great overtakes. Just in recent times I recall a great one on Leclerc at Spa, a couple at Austria, the turn one passes at Monza and Hungary. They were all finely judged, and not DRS dominant snoozers. But his entire F1 career is littered with them even if he was further back to get much TV time. And speaking no TV time his drive at Las Vegas from the back of the grid to 10th (incl FL) was lucklessly excellent.

Yes he has struggled a lot at different times, something to do with generation of tyre combined with the ground effect concept cars I believe but he's largely onto that now. People fail to recognise the Netherlands Leclerc thing was a matter of a fast Ferrari (well driven) whereas Max's Red Bull had a barn door rear wing which made him a sitting target so circumstance exaggerated the situation. Sure it was a sensationally dominant drive from Lando and hats off. Being an admirer of Mr Piastri doesn't mean one thinks less of Mr Norris, one of the exciting things about McLaren is it's drivers - both of them. Both excellent with different strengths and weaknesses, and especially different personalities.

My comment about Oscar being the natural successor to Max is his clinical, ruthless nature. When he discovers a weakness he appears to be able to quickly remedy it, he is learning very fast, which is something that disappoints me about Lando this year. I just think the balance of probability leans to Oscar having that higher ceiling many talk about, maybe not a lot higher but he just seems to have that capacity of the great drivers to deal with stuff in the heat of battle.

You seem to be a big fan.

But, he is not one of the best overtakers on F1. Just looked up the Spa one, it was a good DRS move. I'm not anointing him yet, and would like to see him in some real battles with others than his teammate for a win.
He has potential though, but I still would be surprised if he beats Labdo next season.