Teams working together

[trinidefender]

Is there any proof that Red Bull asked VCARB to box Daniel for fastest lap or is it just speculation?

Too many people are so hurt over 1 point.

It's not about one point, one hundred points or zero points. It's about drivers team members of supposedly unrelated teams taking actions to help another team/driver that have a direct impact on the championship.

About your point of proof. What other reasonable reason could there have been for Daniel pitting to go for fastest lap. He was out of the points.

Also like I said, this isn't only related to Red Bull, it's just this incident is the latest and potentially, the most obvious example.

P.s. lastly, this one point does matter. It makes the difference between continuing an average points difference per race to make the WDC closer or making it further away. So yes. It does matter.

What other reasonable reason would Haas and Magnusson go for the fastest lap then aswell? They were at the back of the pack too. But hey, their not in the top 10, they shouldnt be allowed to go for fastest lap - according to your reasoning.

What if Daniel drove for say Williams, and he's also Max's best mate? Would your best mate not be there to try help you to get all the points you can to maximise your chance of winning the WDC? Maybe that shouldnt be allowed either.

1 point really doesnt matter it seems. Norris has gained just 1 point in the last 12 races in such a dominant car, whilst the Red Bull has struggled. A lot at times. If you cant make use of those 12 races to gain more than a average of 0.08points per race, then there is something wrong.

If I was a McLaren fan, Id be substantially more worried why my driver thats got the most chance of winning the WDC, has only managed 1 point gain to the championship leader in 12 races.

Clearly you're avoiding the main points.

Let's create a hypothetical. If there was an investigation into the Red Bull/VCARB family relationship and evidence was found that Riccardo was indeed instructed to get fastest lap to take the point away from Norris would you support sanctions and/or penalties to the appropriate parties. Particularly DR, VCARB and Red Bull (if it was found they were involved)? (I wouldn't include verstappen himself in this case).

That's as much of a yes or no question that may remove biases. If you answered yes to that question then what do you believe the sanctions and penalties should be?

2nd hypothetical question. As was stated by another poster. If Max had the fastest lap do you believe they would have let Riccardo go for fastest lap?

[trinidefender]

The real question is would've Ricciardo done the same if Max had held the fastest lap...

And yes, it's not a big deal in terms of points, but in all fairness to McLaren, they've been complaining about the RB-RB relationship for A LONG time. They're not just griping about it now because it hurt them today.

No. Simple as that.

If they arrive in Abu Dhabi with Max ahead in the WDC by 1 point due to fastest lap in that race, anyone who thinks VCARB would make their driver arbitrarily fight for the fastest lap (even if they couldnt get the point), is a liar.

Simple as that.

I dont understand why so much of F1 depends on haslighting and people being treated like idiots.

Teams fight and spend hundreds of millions for fractions of a second speed improvements, but were expected to believe that a team who literally owns two more cars on track than every other team would NEVER use that advatage, to their advantage.

Let alone a ruthless team like Red Bull.

Agreed. Biases in abundance.

[PapayaFan481]

All I can say is that I hope Lewis starts working to help his old team beat his old rival where he can....

Imagine we get to Abu Dhabi, Lando needs to win with Max finishing lower than 3rd. In the race Lando leads, Piastri second, Lewis 3rd and Max is closing on him..... Max goes for his typical dive bomb move..... What does Lewis do??

[Stea1th]

There has been multiple times where redbull has been helped by their sister team.

Anyone remember when yuki was told to stop to create a safety car and allow max to pit giving him fresh tires so he could better fight the mercs a few years ago?


Personally I don’t teams or organizations should be allowed multiple teams, I’m against that, however you can’t stop individuals from doing it. We’ve seen “friends” give each other tows in qualy and no one seems to care about that..

[AR3-GP]

Mclaren treated Daniel poorly in 2022. Max always had Daniel's back when he was down and out. Good on Daniel for finding a way to stick it to Zak Brown and Mclaren in his final race. The great Michael Schumacher moved over for Sebastian Vettel at the 2012 Brazilian GP to help Vettel on the way to his 3rd world title. World champion drivers have friends everywhere. We will just have to cope.

[Watto]

Mclaren treated Daniel poorly in 2022. Max always had Daniel's back when he was down and out. Good on Daniel for finding a way to stick it to Zak Brown and Mclaren in his final race. The great Michael Schumacher moved over for Sebastian Vettel at the 2012 Brazilian GP to help Vettel on the way to his 3rd world title. World champion drivers have friends everywhere. We will just have to cope.

Agree there in particular.



I do get the concerns over owning teams but I would be far more concerned over if there was any hidden sharing of car development if RB uses then CFD and Wind tunnel time to help - maybe it doesn't even need to be direct transfer but say Racing Bull use Red Bull suspension and find a path that works from there could that hint at areas RBR might look at.

I also think McLaren has had the choice earlier in the season to favor Lando more. I can guess maybe Oscar has somthing in his contract about not being the no 2 driver.

[joseff]

Imagine we get to Abu Dhabi, Lando needs to win with Max finishing lower than 3rd. In the race Lando leads, Piastri second, Lewis 3rd and Max is closing on him..... Max goes for his typical dive bomb move..... What does Lewis do??

Ah, the old Timo Glock scenario.

Anyway, there is no practical way to prevent VCARB from helping RBR. B-teams have been part of F1 for a long time.

[mendis]

Mclaren treated Daniel poorly in 2022. Max always had Daniel's back when he was down and out. Good on Daniel for finding a way to stick it to Zak Brown and Mclaren in his final race. The great Michael Schumacher moved over for Sebastian Vettel at the 2012 Brazilian GP to help Vettel on the way to his 3rd world title. World champion drivers have friends everywhere. We will just have to cope.

Agree there in particular.



I do get the concerns over owning teams but I would be far more concerned over if there was any hidden sharing of car development if RB uses then CFD and Wind tunnel time to help - maybe it doesn't even need to be direct transfer but say Racing Bull use Red Bull suspension and find a path that works from there could that hint at areas RBR might look at.

I also think McLaren has had the choice earlier in the season to favor Lando more. I can guess maybe Oscar has somthing in his contract about not being the no 2 driver.

No. 2 written in a contract, is a myth. Neither is No. 1 written in a contract. Neither driver knows the terms and conditions of the other either. Drivers that have performed poorly, have come out and alleged themselves to be No. 2 whereas the team principals' have denied existence of any such contractual term. I am sure both drivers have terms to follow the objectives and goals of a team and adhere to decisions made in the best interest of the team. So not being far sighted and failing to make a good strategy call in favor of team's leading driver doesn't automatically mean there is a contractual term in a driver's contract that stops them from doing it.

[Watto]

Mclaren treated Daniel poorly in 2022. Max always had Daniel's back when he was down and out. Good on Daniel for finding a way to stick it to Zak Brown and Mclaren in his final race. The great Michael Schumacher moved over for Sebastian Vettel at the 2012 Brazilian GP to help Vettel on the way to his 3rd world title. World champion drivers have friends everywhere. We will just have to cope.

Agree there in particular.



I do get the concerns over owning teams but I would be far more concerned over if there was any hidden sharing of car development if RB uses then CFD and Wind tunnel time to help - maybe it doesn't even need to be direct transfer but say Racing Bull use Red Bull suspension and find a path that works from there could that hint at areas RBR might look at.

I also think McLaren has had the choice earlier in the season to favor Lando more. I can guess maybe Oscar has somthing in his contract about not being the no 2 driver.

No. 2 written in a contract, is a myth. Neither is No. 1 written in a contract. Neither driver knows the terms and conditions of the other either. Drivers that have performed poorly, have come out and alleged themselves to be No. 2 whereas the team principals' have denied existence of any such contractual term. I am sure both drivers have terms to follow the objectives and goals of a team and adhere to decisions made in the best interest of the team. So not being far sighted and failing to make a good strategy call in favor of team's leading driver doesn't automatically mean there is a contractual term in a driver's contract that stops them from doing it.

I guess, the latter is what I am getting at. By all accounts Oscar seems to accept this years Lando get the priority being closer to Max in the championship .

I think there is an element here going to other sports, or a team blaming a refs call(s) for a loss . But when they ignore tehir own mistakes - things they could control/their own mistakes. In this case, they had full control over how they raced where they were head to head.a few times this year, they have zero control over other doing exactly what VCarb/Dan Ricc did

[DDopey]

Drivers helping each other based on personal preference will always happen. Hulkenberg giving Max a tow is also such an example.

I do find it strange that some people make a big point out of this single point for Lando. If it is all about points than McLaren should have prioritized Lando over Piastri, those points gained combined are way more than this single point.

[McL-H]

Drivers helping each other based on personal preference will always happen. Hulkenberg giving Max a tow is also such an example.

I do find it strange that some people make a big point out of this single point for Lando. If it is all about points than McLaren should have prioritized Lando over Piastri, those points gained combined are way more than this single point.

This is not about the single point. It is not even about McLaren. It is about the fairness of the competition. Now it is a point for fastest lap. Couple of years ago it was a created safety car at Zandvoort. VCARB drivers defend heavily against competitors of mother team, but do not fight hard against mother. As others have brought up, where does this end? Does RBR uses wind tunnel and CFD time from VCARB too? In a serious competition, this cannot and should not be possible. In any other sport there are regulations to prevent an owner having two teams within the same competition.

[DDopey]

Drivers helping each other based on personal preference will always happen. Hulkenberg giving Max a tow is also such an example.

I do find it strange that some people make a big point out of this single point for Lando. If it is all about points than McLaren should have prioritized Lando over Piastri, those points gained combined are way more than this single point.

This is not about the single point. It is not even about McLaren. It is about the fairness of the competition. Now it is a point for fastest lap. Couple of years ago it was a created safety car at Zandvoort. VCARB drivers defend heavily against competitors of mother team, but do not fight hard against mother. As others have brought up, where does this end? Does RBR uses wind tunnel and CFD time from VCARB too? In a serious competition, this cannot and should not be possible. In any other sport there are regulations to prevent an owner having two teams within the same competition.

When you have a competition where you have customers of other teams it will not change. Then you need to demand that every team comes up with their own engine, or engine manufacturers are excluded from having teams themselves. Otherwise there will always be those grey unfair feeling areas, look for example at voting amongst teams.

[basti313]

I do find it strange that some people make a big point out of this single point for Lando. If it is all about points than McLaren should have prioritized Lando over Piastri, those points gained combined are way more than this single point.

Well...on one end this is absolutely correct. Much more points on the table by either poor management or poor execution.
If McLaren would have been committed, they could have just pushed through and taken the Soft in the end.

On the other hand...not really topic in this thead?

CARB drivers defend heavily against competitors of mother team, but do not fight hard against mother.

This I would call BS. I think except for Blockas some years ago and Checo the Animal in Abu, we never even saw a teammate defending.
For CARB the simple thing is that Yuki drives as Yuki does...completely headless. That there was no incident with Max or a SC caused that hurts Max is pure luck.

When you have a competition where you have customers of other teams it will not change. Then you need to demand that every team comes up with their own engine, or engine manufacturers are excluded from having teams themselves. Otherwise there will always be those grey unfair feeling areas, look for example at voting amongst teams.

Yes, that is an interesting point:
Many teams opted against a B team. No one was forced to not having a B team, but most teams decided against it.
Ferrari even had two possible B teams, but opted against taking operations in these teams; decided on part and engine supply.
Same for Merc, they simply did not take the FI team when it was up for sale and they could have also taken a majority in Williams.

And the even more interesting point:
It was more favorable to have an engine factory instead of a B team. Merc won at least 2014 to 2016 purely on the fact, that their money went all-in into the engine and not into a B team if you calculate the invest. Up till 2019 the engine was the divider and also brought Ferrari into the game.
Both Merc and Ferrari also gave the engines cheap to other teams to have more engine partners. That was clearly the favorable way. Renault and Honda struggled over years on the point not having enough customers.

[fourmula1]

Is there any proof that Red Bull asked VCARB to box Daniel for fastest lap or is it just speculation?

Too many people are so hurt over 1 point.

Get over your bias on this specific case. The discussion is legitimate and has been raised over the years. B teams offer a lot on and off the track, research, performance, development, strategy, marketing, operations, and on. I haven't seen it mentioned but even from a sports gambling and betting situation it creates some additional sketchiness.

[basti313]

Is there any proof that Red Bull asked VCARB to box Daniel for fastest lap or is it just speculation?

Too many people are so hurt over 1 point.

Get over your bias on this specific case. The discussion is legitimate and has been raised over the years. B teams offer a lot on and off the track, research, performance, development, strategy, marketing, operations, and on. I haven't seen it mentioned but even from a sports gambling and betting situation it creates some additional sketchiness.

Well, if you want to get over this specific case:
How can you explain that Merc and Ferrari opted against a B team? If it is any beneficial, why didn't they go for it?
In 2018 when Williams was up for sale for no money to today's value Merc did not buy it, but they had to sell cheap to an investor group. At this time the whole game with budget cap, CFD and wind tunnel limits was already on the table, they knew what was comming.

My point is still, it is better to dump your money into an engine factory...