2024 United States Grand Prix - COTA, Oct 18-20

[Tvetovnato]

Everbody quiet! My time to talk!

I agree with the ruling for Norris going off the track. It's yet another example of unpolished racecraft from Norris, not quite a champion driver yet. He's looks to be still on the learning curve. What he did, is a common move that Max used to do in the past, which is not trying to brake later than the defender to the Apex, only just sided by side and then running wide to overtake on the outside of the track. I was never phased by the ruling because it was a slam dunk.

You literally cannot attack Max from the outside of a curve entry. It will fall. He's knows all too well to let his car run "off the brakes" to crowd your apex and run you off the road. You have to attack him from inside or even better yet on the straight.


I'm just ever more convinced now that Lando is the quickest driver but not that great at wheel to wheel.

Weird take. You agree with the penalty for Norris because he should expect Max to approach the corner with a ”you back off or we crash” mindset?
Anyone should be able to attack anyone on the outside if they are far enough ahead when braking for the corner, and be given room all the way through the corner, including the exit. That has always been the case in racing and never been a problem until Verstappen came and did these moves, and the governing body deciding to let it slide for ”the show”. It’s a farce. It requires no skill to do that, and it’s simply bizarre that they don’t change this rule, because you know there will never be any fight when someone is racing Max, it will just end like this all the time, with a controversy after every single race instead of looking back at a great fight. We will be here after Mexico as well discussing the same thing if Lando is chasing down Max with a pace advantage. We will be here discussing the same thing in Brazil as well. That is not how a sport should be enjoyed.

What should have been done for Norris though, was to slap a five or ten second penalty for doing an extremely late moving under braking in turn one, just to set an example of how to conduct yourself on track. And in the end sometime down the road, we might be done with these subpar racing moves once and for all.

[Zynerji]

This ^^^

[PlatinumZealot]

Everbody quiet! My time to talk!

I agree with the ruling for Norris going off the track. It's yet another example of unpolished racecraft from Norris, not quite a champion driver yet. He's looks to be still on the learning curve. What he did, is a common move that Max used to do in the past, which is not trying to brake later than the defender to the Apex, only just sided by side and then running wide to overtake on the outside of the track. I was never phased by the ruling because it was a slam dunk.

You literally cannot attack Max from the outside of a curve entry. It will fall. He's knows all too well to let his car run "off the brakes" to crowd your apex and run you off the road. You have to attack him from inside or even better yet on the straight.


I'm just ever more convinced now that Lando is the quickest driver but not that great at wheel to wheel.

Weird take. You agree with the penalty for Norris because he should expect Max to approach the corner with a ”you back off or we crash” mindset?

No. I agree with the penalty because Norris broke the rules. He was not forced off the track according the rules.

Anyone should be able to attack anyone on the outside if they are far enough ahead when braking for the corner, and be given room all the way through the corner, including the exit. That has always been the case in racing and never been a problem until Verstappen came and did these moves, and the governing body deciding to let it slide for ”the show”. It’s a farce. It requires no skill to do that, and it’s simply bizarre that they don’t change this rule, because you know there will never be any fight when someone is racing Max, it will just end like this all the time, with a controversy after every single race instead of looking back at a great fight. We will be here after Mexico as well discussing the same thing if Lando is chasing down Max with a pace advantage. We will be here discussing the same thing in Brazil as well. That is not how a sport should be enjoyed.

The rule WAS created to reinforces Max's and the FIA's aim to ensure that he breaks Lewis Hamilton's records. In 2021 he was given free reighn to run amok all over the track when he's defending and attacking, because they did not want Lewis Hamilton to have 8 world championships. After the whole Masi farce, and the embarrassing level of stewarding that was 2021 the creation of the rule was a way to defend their crediblity. the old "wrong and strong" stance. For me, it's a rubbish rule, but it is what it is. Because Mas has been in dominant cars post 2021 we just haven't really seen him back in action to take full advantage of these rules that were crafted for him. Do I blame him? Nope! The rules are the rules.

What should have been done for Norris though, was to slap a five or ten second penalty for doing an extremely late moving under braking in turn one, just to set an example of how to conduct yourself on track. And in the end sometime down the road, we might be done with these subpar racing moves once and for all.

I disagree. It was not an extremely late move. Max has done this before. He simply blocks of the turn and you have to brake, run out of grip and run yourself off the track before you get a chance to either back out or turn in before him.

Know your enemy. Lando just isn't following this rule. You simply cannot overtake Max on the outside.
Max knows the rules very well, and has always operated on and over the line. He broke no rule (maybe he went off track, but it's arguable he didn't force Lando off, but he knows just where to position his car in the grey area.

[RonMexico]

Everbody quiet! My time to talk!

I agree with the ruling for Norris going off the track. It's yet another example of unpolished racecraft from Norris, not quite a champion driver yet. He's looks to be still on the learning curve. What he did, is a common move that Max used to do in the past, which is not trying to brake later than the defender to the Apex, only just sided by side and then running wide to overtake on the outside of the track. I was never phased by the ruling because it was a slam dunk.

You literally cannot attack Max from the outside of a curve entry. It will fall. He's knows all too well to let his car run "off the brakes" to crowd your apex and run you off the road. You have to attack him from inside or even better yet on the straight.


I'm just ever more convinced now that Lando is the quickest driver but not that great at wheel to wheel.

Weird take. You agree with the penalty for Norris because he should expect Max to approach the corner with a ”you back off or we crash” mindset?

No. I agree with the penalty because Norris broke the rules. He was not forced off the track according the rules.

Anyone should be able to attack anyone on the outside if they are far enough ahead when braking for the corner, and be given room all the way through the corner, including the exit. That has always been the case in racing and never been a problem until Verstappen came and did these moves, and the governing body deciding to let it slide for ”the show”. It’s a farce. It requires no skill to do that, and it’s simply bizarre that they don’t change this rule, because you know there will never be any fight when someone is racing Max, it will just end like this all the time, with a controversy after every single race instead of looking back at a great fight. We will be here after Mexico as well discussing the same thing if Lando is chasing down Max with a pace advantage. We will be here discussing the same thing in Brazil as well. That is not how a sport should be enjoyed.

The rule WAS created to reinforces Max's and the FIA's aim to ensure that he breaks Lewis Hamilton's records. In 2021 he was given free reighn to run amok all over the track when he's defending and attacking, because they did not want Lewis Hamilton to have 8 world championships. After the whole Masi farce, and the embarrassing level of stewarding that was 2021 the creation of the rule was a way to defend their crediblity. the old "wrong and strong" stance. For me, it's a rubbish rule, but it is what it is. Because Mas has been in dominant cars post 2021 we just haven't really seen him back in action to take full advantage of these rules that were crafted for him. Do I blame him? Nope! The rules are the rules.

What should have been done for Norris though, was to slap a five or ten second penalty for doing an extremely late moving under braking in turn one, just to set an example of how to conduct yourself on track. And in the end sometime down the road, we might be done with these subpar racing moves once and for all.

I disagree. It was not an extremely late move. Max has done this before. He simply blocks of the turn and you have to brake, run out of grip and run yourself off the track before you get a chance to either back out or turn in before him.

Know your enemy. Lando just isn't following this rule. You simply cannot overtake Max on the outside.
Max knows the rules very well, and has always operated on and over the line. He broke no rule (maybe he went off track, but it's arguable he didn't force Lando off, but he knows just where to position his car in the grey area.

It will be 2025 in a couple of months, time to move on from the 2021 season my friend.

[bananapeel23]

The rule WAS created to reinforces Max's and the FIA's aim to ensure that he breaks Lewis Hamilton's records. In 2021 he was given free reighn to run amok all over the track when he's defending and attacking, because they did not want Lewis Hamilton to have 8 world championships. After the whole Masi farce, and the embarrassing level of stewarding that was 2021 the creation of the rule was a way to defend their crediblity. the old "wrong and strong" stance. For me, it's a rubbish rule, but it is what it is. Because Mas has been in dominant cars post 2021 we just haven't really seen him back in action to take full advantage of these rules that were crafted for him. Do I blame him? Nope! The rules are the rules.

Stop this conspiracy slop.

Good drivers defend hard when the circumstances call for it. Sometimes they push the limits and get away with it, sometimes they don't. Max gets penalised plenty when he goes over the limits. This time it was in the grey area, either decision would have made sense. If the FIA stepped in and decided to regulate overtaking further, there wouldn't be any exciting defensive drives at all, because hard racing would just be penalised.

Norris undeniably deserved a penalty for overtaking off track. Max didn't obviously deserve a penalty and penalising him would set a poor precedent that would discourage hard defending.

[venkyhere]

1- NOR came out of the pits in lap32, with a 7lap tyre advantage w.r.t VER and by the time he had warmed up his H and started lap33, he was 6.9s behind VER.
2- NOR hunted down this gap to within DRS window, by lap43 => at a spectacular rate of 5.9/10 = 0.59 ~= 0.6s/lap.
3- VER kept behind a car that had 0.6s/lap advantage, for 9 laps.
4- The infamous lap52 incident at T12, NOR overtakes VER.
5- NOR finished the overtake and gained 4.1s in the remaining 4 laps, which would mean the 0.6s/lap advantage had become 1s/lap advantage due to VER using up all his tyre life in his 9 lap defence.

Everyone (in many threads, esp McLaren team thread) is discussing "4" to death, where everything from FIA stewards' antecedents to VERs childhood upbringing is questioned.

Not much is discussed about "3". That was the highlight of the entire race, I thought. It showed how elite driving skill is not just about car control but also about mind control. NOR has to enhance himself a lot, to be counted in the same category as VER. Right now, VER has psychologically got NOR in his pocket.

[Seanspeed]

If the FIA stepped in and decided to regulate overtaking further, there wouldn't be any exciting defensive drives at all, because hard racing would just be penalised.

Absolutely untrue. If FIA simply made 'running others alongside you off-track' completely illegal in all cases, we'd actually get more and better action. Being able to run others off the road deprives of us of action and nice hard racing. There is nothing 'hard' about doing this, it simply takes a willingness to play a game of chicken with the other driver that they'll actually go off and not just crash into you. It's a lazy and desperate way to defend(or overtake).

[dialtone]

If the FIA stepped in and decided to regulate overtaking further, there wouldn't be any exciting defensive drives at all, because hard racing would just be penalised.

Absolutely untrue. If FIA simply made 'running others alongside you off-track' completely illegal in all cases, we'd actually get more and better action. Being able to run others off the road deprives of us of action and nice hard racing. There is nothing 'hard' about doing this, it simply takes a willingness to play a game of chicken with the other driver that they'll actually go off and not just crash into you. It's a lazy and desperate way to defend(or overtake).

Yeah, this seems intuitive to me as well. And why the proposal of adding gravel was rejected by Verstappen as well.

We could consider giving banana peels to the car in front though, and if a car leaves track they explode. This will make passing more exciting.

[Rikhart]

When even the british media admits it was clear cut, you can stop the whining.

[Dazmacca5700]

When even the british media admits it was clear cut, you can stop the whining.

There is consensus, 'grey areas', among armchairs, alleged experts, drivers and stewards. They are no rules, only guidelines, the only guidelines enshrined are from post 2021, and then a variation to the current set. Agreed, that any appeal in general in always rejected, as the FIA are not transparent and inconsistent. The current guidelines are too open to manipulation. For me its perhaps the interpretation and the changeable flow of who is the attacking and defending,

[FW17]

A lit is spoken about gravel traps on circuits that are used for both F1 and MotoGP events, I was wondering why the gravel traps cannot be rolled and covered with a thick granular membrane for the bike races and removed for the car races.

[dialtone]

A lit is spoken about gravel traps on circuits that are used for both F1 and MotoGP events, I was wondering why the gravel traps cannot be rolled and covered with a thick granular membrane for the bike races and removed for the car races.

They have movable traps in austria but it’s not really the problem here as mentioned by Max as well.

All drivers and teams want clarifications about what’s allowed to defend, basically unanimous that last weekend was inconsistent and gravel traps don’t fix that.

[FW17]

A lit is spoken about gravel traps on circuits that are used for both F1 and MotoGP events, I was wondering why the gravel traps cannot be rolled and covered with a thick granular membrane for the bike races and removed for the car races.

They have movable traps in austria but it’s not really the problem here as mentioned by Max as well.

All drivers and teams want clarifications about what’s allowed to defend, basically unanimous that last weekend was inconsistent and gravel traps don’t fix that.

The alleged inconsistency arose as drivers were willing to drive off the track, something which will not be the case with a presence of gravel.

[Luscion]

Mclaren's appeal rejected

[dialtone]

Shocking.