Final 2010 Entry List & 2011 Tender

[Pup]

That's right, you can't blame the manufacturers for Cosworth. If Cosworth had made a better engine, then the independent teams - whom I guess WB calls 'satellite' teams when they don't do what he wants - wouldn't have been flighting to get manufacturer units. Besides, when they left, they didn't blame anyone but the FIA. It was the 2-race engine and the frieze that did them in and nothing more.

It's just another example of the FIA working to devalue the sport. Instead of fighting to have more engine suppliers and more diversity, they fought to push out the manufacturers and install a single source for the engines. Why? Because that gave Max more power. No different from the tires.

Care to address the other points, WB, or were you just hoping to slip out the back on those?

[WhiteBlue]

What is the point of arguing with you Pup? Someone who claims that the FiA pushed the manufacturers out is negating all the basic facts of life. There is no point of trying to reason with you and the likes. The manufacturers have left due to lack of success and economic pressure, everybody except you and the horse wisperer knows that. To a small degree the FOTA policies on fuel efficiency did the rest to drive away the likes of BMW, because they cannot find their core values of dynamic efficiency in F1 any more.

I'm pretty sure the Cosworth engine will be competitive. It would have been in 2006 if there had been enough independent teams asking for it in 2003-2006. But the manufacturer engines flooded the market with huge spending (collectively 1 bil per annum) and Cosworth never had a chance to compete with that. Totally relying on manufacturers is a boom and bust cycle and F1 should never do that. There should always be a fall back of an independent engine manufacturer and independent teams. It is vital that the FiA protects those elements in F1 and forces the entry of new independent teams.

[Pup]

You are so wrong, my kleineschumifanatischemann. Manufacturer participation is based on the value of their sponsorship - i.e., advertising - and the FIA has systematically worked to remove that value year after year. If companies like LG are prepared to spend "hundreds of millions" in the sport, then you could expect that companies who's products actually had something to do with the sport might find a similar value. And since F1's position as the pinnacle of motorsport hinges on manufacturer participation, then it's obvious to anyone that the FIA should be courting them, not working against them.

Max couldn't do that, because his ego wouldn't let him. Max was a dictator, whereas an organization like the FIA should ideally be run by a world class ass-kisser. I present the current state of the sport and the FIA as evidence in my case.

[WhiteBlue]

Pup, by a personal attack on me and trying to belittle me you just show the weakness of your point of view. Reasonable people can argue or make a point without personal attacks on other members.

The FiA have never been anti manufacturer. They just know that a healthy structure for F1 cannot rely on their continuing presence. Therefore the manufacturers and their teams cannot and will not be allowed to tweak all the rules to their advantage and drive out all independent teams and engine manufacturers. If Montezemolo had it his way - and obviously your way as well - we would pretty soon have a championship with just Ferrari and McLaren or perhaps Mercedes only. Each so called "Grandee" team would have four or five cars on the track until one of the teams collapses and F1 would be dead.

The nonsense in such a policy is self evident. No amount of diffamation against Max Mosley will detract from the fact that he saved F1 from massive damage by megalomaniacs like Dennis and Montezemolo. Their vision of F1 which included just these two teams and no others will never happen. I am confident that the new teams will race and that Williams with the Cosworth engine will be doing as well or better than with the Toyota engine.

[Pup]

Rubbish. Max has always been anti manufacturer. Or rather, I should say that he has always been anti group-of-manufacturers. He'd have been fine picking a single one, provided he controlled the strings.

An organization which is dependent on a single supplier is always, always at greater risk than one which can source from multiple suppliers. But Max was willing to put the FIA in that situation because his priorities were always about control. Mosley simply couldn't work within a democratic system - he'd go mad. Add that to his absolute hatred at watching his rivals succeed, and we have the last 10 years of the sport in a nutshell.

And I don't see why you squirm so at my terms of endearment. I assure you, their intention is pure.

[pgj]

If manufacturers were getting value for money from their F1 investment they would still be involved in F1. A similar thing can be said of sponsors. It is not right to blame everything on Max either. Even though he did destabilize the established F1 Team/Manufacturer model that had seen F1 through other recessions in the first place. He did a pretty good job in redressing the balance in the latter part of his tenure and the recession finished the job off.

If I were the FIA, I would hold an in depth enquiry into how the media rights to F1 were sold in a fire sale. Now if anyone wants to hold a grudge against Max it should be over the fire sale. For that will surely be Max's legacy to F1 from his time in office.

[JohnsonEvilTwin]

I have to say, my point of view coincides with that of "pups".

F1 would be a second tier sport without manufacturers, its as simple as that.
People want to see Ferrari, Mercedes etc racing wheel to wheel, thats not say F1 will die without them.
The reality is F1's problems were etched far more deeply than simple manufacturer overspends. The FIA demonstrated that, under Mosley at least, it could not function as an unbiased authority on the sport. The veto power it gave Ferrari is testament to this fact as is the additional money Ferrari recieved from CVC(negotiated with FIA sanction).
Ferrari were acting in their own interests, as any other team would(witness Williams antics of the last 18 months) but the authorities are there to stop exactly this sort of behaviour. Instead they sponsored it!

Max Mosley will spill the beans on that in due course no doubt, He can expect an almighty backlash from Ferrari for it too.
My question to him would be this: When Ferrari and McLaren started to spend upwards of 150 million a season in 1996 onwards, why did you not implement a strategy BACK THEN? You cannot hope to demand that teams accept a $40million budget when they employ 700+ people. That is plain stupid. Mosley screwed up, it was a long time coming and he tried to blame the manufacturers.

Glad the fool has gone.....

[WhiteBlue]

Rubbish. Max has always been anti manufacturer.

Nonsense! Mosley had no problems with the boards of the manufacturers. In actual fact he was happy to align F1 with their wishes for road relevant technology, fuel efficiency and KERS. The problem always were the guys in control of the top racing teams who were the recipients of the automotive money, Dennis being the worst of them with a worthy successor in Montezemolo. Those guys seem to think that F1 exists only to fulfill their ambitions and that the have a god given right to have the rules bent to their liking to guarantee their domination.

An organization which is dependent on a single supplier is always, always at greater risk than one which can source from multiple suppliers. But Max was willing to put the FIA in that situation because his priorities were always about control. Mosley simply couldn't work within a democratic system - he'd go mad. Add that to his absolute hatred at watching his rivals succeed, and we have the last 10 years of the sport in a nutshell.

Again utter nonsense. F1 racing isn't a business like any other, it also is a sport and entertainment. Single ECU and tyre supply for instance were introduce to make the sport better or more affordable and those changes were made with the acceptance of all or nearly all teams. The single ECU stopped the cars largely being driven by computers and put the driver back into control. The single tyre supplier eliminated obscene testing costs that had no contribution to the racing spectacle. Since the introduction fan have seen more drivers fight for race wins and championships than before and the fans love it.

It is not F1 that is going wrong. It was the misguided egoism of folks like Dennis, Montezemolo and Briatore that almost destroyed F1 racing. The FiA did the right things under Mosley and under Todt so far. I'm sure we will have a fantastic season with a great championship race this year and all the doom sayers will crawl back into their holes or kennels.

[Pup]

Poppycock! It's men like Dennis and Montezemolo who pushed the sport forward. There's a reason that the field is dominated this year by Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes technology; and that's because men like them built businesses that could survive the FIA's siege.

[JohnsonEvilTwin]

It was the misguided egoism of folks like Dennis, Montezemolo and Briatore that almost destroyed F1 racing.

White Blue

Who do you think had the responsibitly to keep those characters in check?
Exactly the sort of thing that misguided governance breeds.....

[ISLAMATRON]

We know nothing of these teams' chances. We don't even know yet if Campos will make the first race. Look, if at the end of the season, these teams have been shown to be competitive, then sure, we can start handing out medals. Of course, please note that if you're going to give the FIA premature credit for creating this "framework", then you won't at the end of the year be allowed to blame FOTA if these teams remain 4-6 seconds off the pace.

I still can't see how people accepted Mosley's continued attempts to replace 6 engine suppliers with 1 under the guise of 'stability'. That was always about power.

Pup, please answer the following question? What new team has entered and NOT been off the pace? Dont say SAR, because their first year was horrible, and they were gifted a Honda chassis the next. So instead of complaining of being forced watch 12 teams(3 of them new & and therefore slow) instead of 9 or possible 8 as it could have been this year, just sit back and enjoy the show, there might be some good battle in the back among the slowpokes. And you might get to see a couple new good drivers, some say Kobay, but I got my eye on Senna.

Secondly, regarding the part in bold, that is such an outright lie it is rediculous. Is there some version of Fox F1 news that contorts and twists everything that I dont suscribe to? I understand you guys around here hate the man, and I agree he's not a very likeable guy, but do you have to lie, and make things up? He at no time, publicly made any move to "replace 6 engine manufacter
with 1". Basically he told the engine makers make customer engines cheaper and give them the same spec you run, they said No, so he put out a tender for an outside engine maker and froze the engines, with those moves independent teams could have the same spec as the manufacterer and everyone had lower engine costs.

Source 1 article, interview, or even quote where Mosley said he want to replace all the engine manufacterers with an outside supplier, or please stop dissimating false information.

[RacingManiac]

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... /8546.html

[ISLAMATRON]

17 Oct 2008
FIA seeking standardised engines from 2010 Formula One racing’s governing body, the FIA, has invited tenders for a third party supplier of engines and transmission systems to be used by competitors in the 2010, 2011 and 2012 world championships.

However, existing teams and engine suppliers could still be allowed to build their own engines, providing they are to the same standardised design specified by the third party supplier.

The move to a single engine is one of several ideas being proposed by the FIA as a means of further reducing costs and increasing competitiveness in the sport, which already has a freeze on engine development.

Did you not read the parts in bold?
And the spec was not to be change from the V-8 as it was at the time

[RacingManiac]

Just posting article because you asked if it was mentioned.....I literally typed in "f1 single engine supplier" on Google and it was the first one....

The idea is still that they only build 1 kind of identical powertrain. So even if you build by different companies it'll still technically be the same engine, designed by the same 3rd party source....

At any rate it was more of a passing fancy since it'll never fly if there are more than 2 companies that makes engine stays in F1...

[pgj]

I was never sure that the standard engine was anything more than a bargaining ploy.