Japanese GP 2010 - Suzuka

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Robbobnob
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Re: Japanese GP 2010 - Suzuka

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Fan boys will be fan boys,

To me the outright performer of the weekend would have to be hands down Kamui, in front of his home crowd supplied some tremendous overtaking, not sure what the figures were but certainly firms him as talent of the future.

note, i believe the way Vettel conducted the race yesterday has shown a definite change in the way he is setting out to race, with calm and clarity

<Hamilton fan boy rebuttal here>
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Gerhard Berger
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Re: Japanese GP 2010 - Suzuka

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ringo wrote:Lucky not to avoid penalties? :lol:
What does that have to do with luck?
In your opinion he deserved a penalty but that is yours. In my opinion, that it's the oppositie.

Try better than that. I don't even look on what penalties could have been. Others drivers had similar experiences.I am looking at what actually happened. Penalties are in the hands of the stewards, that cannot be considered lucky, it's still under control by men.

He wasn't gifted a win in Turkey, he pushed for it. Alonso was gifted a win in Germany; why not mention that?
There is no balance, Hamilton is tipping the scales on bad luck.
lol emoticons don't hold much water in this debate. Please try and act in a more mature manner.

It's nothing to do with my opinion. According to the rules, weaving is not allowed, therefore he was lucky to get away with just a warning.

Penalties have been handed out rather inconsistanntly this season, so i'd still say luck has something to do with it.

He was gifted the win in Turkey. The Red Bulls took eachother out. Alonso was indeed gifted a win in Germany, i didn't mention it because we're talking about Hamilton here.

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djos
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Re: Japanese GP 2010 - Suzuka

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Mysticf1 wrote:Webber bagged the fastest lap for no other reason but to annoy Vettel.
Exactly, quote from Mark: “I couldn’t let Seb take the triple crown, could I?”.
"In downforce we trust"

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Japanese GP 2010 - Suzuka

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Ray wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:
n smikle wrote:I really think Webber is just as fast as Vettel now.
You are in a very elite circle of friends with that opinion. If Webber hadn't consistently been lucky to see his competitors DNF out of races and get away himself with mediocre speed he would be no higher than P3 today. In Singapore he was slow in FP, qualy and the race. He should have suffered a puncture like Hamilton in that tangle but he was incredibly lucky. In Suzuka he was consistently the slower of the two Red Bull drivers in all sessions often by half a second per lap. To compare him with Vettel on speed can only embarrass the Australian. He is a lucky old man who makes few mistakes in the fastest car. I bet Kobayashi would beat him on speed eight days out of ten in the same car.
And how many wins does Vettel have where he had to pass for the lead or pass multiple cars? I seem to remember Webber winning a race with a drive through for good measure.
I don't think this was the issue here. N smikle thinks that Webber is as fast as Vettel lately. Frankly put, that is a ridiculous proposition that bears no resemblance with the facts. Look up the session times and and you will see the error in that thinking. Webber is so bloody slow that on even points no one would give him a decent chance for WDC now. :lol:
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747heavy
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Re: Japanese GP 2010 - Suzuka

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andrew wrote:http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/McLa ... ilton.html

Looks like a dog ring failure. No idea what that is, going to find out.
probably not a F1 part as such, but the concept is the same.
the part on the left is called a "dog ring"

Image

function in principle (here they call it a collar - pink part)
Image

These parts, are unlikely to get damaged due to driver error or driving style these days in F1. It can be a part or assembly failure as well as a software problem (wrong shift strategy etc.)

driving over curbs, or in a way that causes excessive load changes can damage a gearbox. But in this case it´s more often a shaft (input shaft) failure, then a gear or dog ring failure. As rapidly changing loads, such as landing with a wheel after a curb hop, will cause shock loads in the drivetrain, which can lead to torsional overload and oscilations of/in the shafts (especially driveshafts as well).
But I would assume, that the parts are designed with these loadcase in mind, and you used to "beef up" some parts for a road course such as Monaco in the past.

If the design is borderline to start with, a driver could push it over the limit.
But I don´t think, that this is/was the case with L.H. g/box today.
It´s more of an McLaren quality control issue, then a driver issue in this case - IMHO

It does poses some challenges, particular in rallying and off road racing (landing after jumps) in terms off gearbox/drive train design
Last edited by 747heavy on 10 Oct 2010, 23:31, edited 1 time in total.
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djos
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Re: Japanese GP 2010 - Suzuka

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WhiteBlue wrote: I don't think this was the issue here. N smikle thinks that Webber is as fast as Vettel lately. Frankly put, that is a ridiculous proposition that bears no resemblance with the facts. Look up the session times and and you will see the error in that thinking. Webber is so bloody slow that on even points no one would give him a decent chance for WDC now. :lol:
At least Webber has shown that he can overtake ppl and seriously, Vettel pipped Webber by a few 100ths of second in Q3, we are talking bee's dick stuff here!!!!
"In downforce we trust"

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Japanese GP 2010 - Suzuka

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djos wrote:Vettel pipped Webber by a few 100ths of second in Q3, we are talking bee's dick stuff here!!!!
Well, Sazuka Q3 is one session out of 14 from the last two race weekends. So in that one session he got close. In the other sessions he was between 1 and 0.5 seconds behind. Open your eyes and accept the reality.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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ringo
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Re: Japanese GP 2010 - Suzuka

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andartop wrote:
Terrible3 wrote:I do recall him overtaking MW on lap one this year for a win......
Don't get me wrong, I do acknowledge Vettel's ability to overtake, but I would just love to see him having to actually work hard during a race to overtake other cars and climb up to 1st starting from further back on the grid. Most of his wins he has managed from pole, and none as far as I can remember starting from midfield.
ringo wrote:So every driver has a luck bag to collect their share of luck.
Hamilton is the unlickiest driver this season, aside from truli and luizi.

He has had 3 bad races in a row,1 of which he could be blamed for, which driver has had that?

Hamilton had no lucky escapes. Spa was not luck, anyone could look at that and see that he took control of the car to keep it on track. Luck is when the driver has no involvement in his fortune; such as others crashing out, or weather, or mechanical failures.

A wdc challenger qualifies 3rd, has grid penalty,and still had a gearbox failure; he's lucky indeed.
Let's not turn this into another thread about who likes Hamilton and who does not. Obviously, one can interpret luck or lack of in different ways. In my opinion losing it in slippery conditions as in Spa and getting away with it was kinda lucky, as it could have easily ended in tears had he banged his front left a touch harder or got stuck in the gravel. One can consider this as bad luck (because he slipped) counteracted by driver control (because he saved it), or as driver error (because he slipped) saved by luck (because he didn't hit a wall or get stuck in gravel). All I'm saying is all title contenders this year have had some good luck and some bad luck. At the end of the season, no matter who gets the WDC, there will be some people calculating what could have/would have happened if their favourite driver had been a touch luckier or their contenders a touch unluckier! I find this sad...[/quote]

just as sad as those bringing up old event like penalties that never were.
Penalties simply has nothing to do with luck, by the true definition of luck.
Not only that, but some claim the guy broke rules that the stewards deemed never were.
There is no such thing as luck balance, it's a simple minded way at looking at a championship.
Luck is luck, there is no balance or order to completely random events.

Hamilton, Luizi, Petrov, Button were unlucky today, all with varying degrees. I don't care about all sort of nit picky theories anybody wants to make up to justify someone deserving a gear box failure. Saying luck balances out is like feeling content with someones misfortune because you believe they were condemned to the misfortune that befell them. All superstition and is not worthy on being in a technical discussion.
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djos
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Re: Japanese GP 2010 - Suzuka

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WhiteBlue wrote:
djos wrote:Vettel pipped Webber by a few 100ths of second in Q3, we are talking bee's dick stuff here!!!!
Well, Sazuka Q3 is one session out of 14 from the last two race weekends. So in that one session he got close. In the other sessions he was between 1 and 0.5 seconds behind. Open your eyes and accept the reality.
The difference between mark and seb is that mark knows being fastest only counts in q3, seb thinks he has to be fastest for everything!
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ringo
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Re: Japanese GP 2010 - Suzuka

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Ray wrote: Lewis is having a rash of bad luck no doubt, but to act like he's the only one that is suffering this year in the championship isn't exactly fair. In fact I'd say he's pretty damn lucky after todays race. If it had been Kimi's McLaren from a few years back that gearbox would have fallen off the car. He's had a bad few races, but he hasn't been that unlucky.
Where did i say he is the only one having bad luck and suffering?

He's had a bad few races, but he's lucky like a leprecauhn, sure.
He's as unlucky this last half as Truli.

hungary, monza, singapore, suzuka. a string of bad races mostly out of the driver's control. Who else is as unlucky (remember i didn't say no one is free of it, but who else in the top 5 had this much poor luck?)
Then you go and say the guy is lucky actually, and expect anyone to scratch their head and say, "hey, you know you're right!"

Anyway, every great champion needs a race where he finishes with a messed up gearbox. Shumacher, Senna, all had a race like this. Just another prerequisite to saga of legends.

Aside from Hamilton. I said this before, but Alonso cannot be touched by Button or redbull drivers. HE showed again that he is in another class.
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ringo
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Re: Japanese GP 2010 - Suzuka

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djos wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote: I don't think this was the issue here. N smikle thinks that Webber is as fast as Vettel lately. Frankly put, that is a ridiculous proposition that bears no resemblance with the facts. Look up the session times and and you will see the error in that thinking. Webber is so bloody slow that on even points no one would give him a decent chance for WDC now. :lol:
At least Webber has shown that he can overtake ppl and seriously, Vettel pipped Webber by a few 100ths of second in Q3, we are talking bee's dick stuff here!!!!
This is very true. Many times he made decisive overtakes. Vettel is faster but he's not as complete as webber. And i don't like many things about webber, but he is championship capable if he focuses hard.
I put Webber above Button so far. Button has not shown the attacking spirit like webber has.
Webber also seems to be covering his bases when he's not the fastest driver over the weekend. His gap is actually growing.
For Sure!!

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Japanese GP 2010 - Suzuka

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djos wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:
djos wrote:Vettel pipped Webber by a few 100ths of second in Q3, we are talking bee's dick stuff here!!!!
Well, Sazuka Q3 is one session out of 14 from the last two race weekends. So in that one session he got close. In the other sessions he was between 1 and 0.5 seconds behind. Open your eyes and accept the reality.
The difference between mark and seb is that mark knows being fastest only counts in q3, seb thinks he has to be fastest for everything!
Well if he is so clever he should manage to go faster when it counts. He did not do this in Singapore and Suzuka. In actual fact he managed to do this on very few occasions and mostly at times when Seb's car was broken.

FACT: Vettel is faster than Webber in a 2010 Red Bull.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Greg_OR
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Re: Japanese GP 2010 - Suzuka

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back to the Petrov penalty - can anybody link any onboards from behind?
Its a shame there was lack of them on the broadcast replays.
And as I watch available replays I see Hulkenberg could avoid crash - after sleepy start Nico should look around more as Heidfeld and Petrov were much faster at that moment and the accident was front to rear wheel so Petrov was well in front of him, or am I wrong? Anyway its hard to judge without good view.
Generally I wonder why the onboards are not shared in large numbers by official site (there is still 2009 Jarno one for suzuka there :!: :o)
This would cost them nothing as they already have them recorded I supose. Are they doing big money on them, anyhow, or what?.

zeph
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Re: Japanese GP 2010 - Suzuka

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WhiteBlue wrote:FACT: Vettel is faster than Webber in a 2010 Red Bull.
zeph wrote:Uhm, I think that is not entirely true. Webber was the man to beat in Spain, Monaco and Turkey. He out-qualified Vettel and won the former two races fair and square. And I think he could have won Turkey as well, but that remains subject to debate.
It seems to me that Webber is now just being more conservative and keeping his eyes on the prize. Vettel has some catching up to do, which he did today.

andartop
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Re: Japanese GP 2010 - Suzuka

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ringo wrote: just as sad as those bringing up old event like penalties that never were.
Penalties simply has nothing to do with luck, by the true definition of luck.
Not only that, but some claim the guy broke rules that the stewards deemed never were.
There is no such thing as luck balance, it's a simple minded way at looking at a championship.
Luck is luck, there is no balance or order to completely random events.

Hamilton, Luizi, Petrov, Button were unlucky today, all with varying degrees. I don't care about all sort of nit picky theories anybody wants to make up to justify someone deserving a gear box failure. Saying luck balances out is like feeling content with someones misfortune because you believe they were condemned to the misfortune that befell them. All superstition and is not worthy on being in a technical discussion.
:wtf:
What does any of this have to do with anything I have posted?
I did not say anything about past penalties, "luck balance" or that Hamilton was to blame for his gearbox failure.
I assume you misquoted me there.
In any case, I think we all agree luck comes and goes.
Let's leave it at that; this whole luck business is not worth further discussion..
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. H.P.Lovecraft