Singapore GP 2011 - Marina Bay Street Circuit

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Brundle and Coulthard both expected Webber to benefit from the EBD ban and Vettel to suffer.
It was all due to how the drivers brake and then enter/exit corners, that Vettels style was more prone to the ban.
I will try find out the reasons why and post them when I can.

Something to do with the throttle angle going through corners that Webber was better at doing it manually rather than the automatic setting they all have now(maxed at 10%).
Late braking will not help with an automatic blowing system, it will favour drivers who brake earlier and get the benefit sooner,...

[JMN]

How much of Vettels domination is due to the EBD?

Remember how Red Bull changed the engine map software midway through last season (was it just after Silverstone?). Prior to that, Webber was widely praised for his ability to adapt his line through corners to make the most of the exhaust blowing. It's hard to quantify, but I think it's fair to speculate (!) the fingertip drivers see a marginally larger benefit from the EBD compared to the drivers adjusting their turns constantly using both the wheel and the throttle.

Then say you added an EBD. Now it's SENSITIVE to throttle position; and you would need to drive in a certain way to eliminate this sensitivity.

My conception of the difference between the EBDs of 2011 and the exhaust blowing used in 2010 is exactly the difference in throttle sensitivity. With hot/cold blowing maximized off throttle this year, the difference in exhaust gas volume assisting the diffuser is less than volume difference on and off throttle last year?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

How much of Vettels domination is due to the EBD?

Remember how Red Bull changed the engine map software midway through last season (was it just after Silverstone?). Prior to that, Webber was widely praised for his ability to adapt his line through corners to make the most of the exhaust blowing. It's hard to quantify, but I think it's fair to speculate (!) the fingertip drivers see a marginally larger benefit from the EBD compared to the drivers adjusting their turns constantly using both the wheel and the throttle.

Yes, thats what Brundle and Coulthard were alluding too. I think if you look at what's happened in terms of the performance between Vettel and Webber, you could plot a graph that would coincide with these automated developments.

[timbo]

Just give the man a winning car.

Ironically his most stable and "mature" year (except his debut season) was 2009.

[Richard]

Yes. Perhaps I shouldn't have specified using Vettel, but rather domination by any single team or driver.

I agree, but I don't remember much complaints when Schumacher was winning so often, was that beacause of Ferrari?

That's a cheap shot, there was a lot of complaints about Schumacher's dominance making F1 boring. Many of the Schumacher years were tedious due to lack of effective competition.

At least this year we're seeing some exciting competition between Alonso, Button, Webber & Hamilton fighting among themselves. There is also some good competition further down the grid. So I'd say it has been an exciting season, once you ignore the golden boy at front.

[raymondu999]

Brundle and Coulthard both expected Webber to benefit from the EBD ban and Vettel to suffer

No, they expected him to suffer from the banning of off-throttle blowing. Not from the actual exhaust position banning. Here's what I'm saying in a nutshell:

EBD + offthottle: Advantage Vettel
EBD + No offthrottle: Advantage Webber
No EBD (periscope exhaust): advantage Vettel

The Silverstone 2011 engine map ban, and the alleged Valencia 2010 engine map change you speak of didn't change the EBD, it changed in the fact that the EBD kept blowing when the driver was off the throttle, making it not sensitive to throttle position; and not requiring special lines which Mark mastered.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Raymondu,

Im not 100% on the this but let me just reference this with yourself quickly:

EBD + No offthrottle: Advantage Webber
No EBD (periscope exhaust): advantage Vettel

These are effectively the same thing in braking zones, where Webber is losing out. Check the back to back videos of Webbo vs Seb and you see the tiny fractions Vettel gains in big breaking zones.
The EBD itself gives them both an advantage, its what happens when they come off the throttle and the automated sensors kick in to blow that Vettel is gaining in relative terms.

With Periscope exhausts, you will also have no blowing of the floor, or any over-run to speak of. This will suit Webber, no?

[raymondu999]

That's where I'm disagreeing. Webber is losing in entry, apex and exit phases; it's not just a matter of braking. I reckon part of the braking advantage is just Vettel being a lot more confident on it than Webber is.

The way I see it, the off-throttle blown diffuser removes the throttle sensitivity of downforce production; and is basically increasing downforce in the slow corners.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

That's where I'm disagreeing. Webber is losing in entry, apex and exit phases; it's not just a matter of braking. I reckon part of the braking advantage is just Vettel being a lot more confident on it than Webber is.

The way I see it, the off-throttle blown diffuser removes the throttle sensitivity of downforce production; and is basically increasing downforce in the slow corners.

The problem you get when you lose time under braking is that it will have a massive impact on entry, mid corner and exit speed.
You see it time and time again when BBC do there head to head replays of where Vettel is extracting more from the car in the braking zones. By being better in these zones it allows Vettel more speed in the critical mid corner and exit.
Its not every corner he dominates, but the genral gist here is that Vettel prefers the current guise.

When they revert back to periscopes, I would expect Webber to be back near the 2009 and 2010 form. There is no other logical explantion as to how Vettel has trampled him this season in comparison to the preceding 2 years.

I guess we shall have to wait and see

[raymondu999]

We would have to wait and see. I think we're agreed on disagreeing here

And 2009 let's not forget he also smashed Webber. I'm convinced it's the tyres and not exhausts.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

We would have to wait and see. I think we're agreed on disagreeing here

And 2009 let's not forget he also smashed Webber. I'm convinced it's the tyres and not exhausts.

It could possibly be the Tyres. I'm not going to rule anything out until we see what happens in 2012

[Intego]

When they revert back to periscopes, I would expect Webber to be back near the 2009 and 2010 form. There is no other logical explantion as to how Vettel has trampled him this season in comparison to the preceding 2 years.

That's almost right. The second point is that Webber had (a bit) more technical problems at the start of the season and needed some time to get comfortable with the car. I think when building the RB7 the team considered the WDC desires somewhat more.

Then, when outperformed in Qualifying and starting somewhere behind Vettel, Webber suffers from suboptimal pit strategy, because the leader eats first.

And I really wonder why Webber isn't able to sort out his poor starting performance.

[Rob W]

I don't understand Schumacher...why did he have to push that hard there? He's driving very very well, but sometimes he suffers from the Hamilton syndrome. At least he admits his faults straightaway

He did? Some of his comments sounded to me like he was blaming Perez.

> "Basically he just lifted off too early and I couldn't anticipate it. I was about to try and go on the inside as he was a lot slower than myself."

What he should have said was: "I wasn't paying as much attention as I should and drove into the back of a slower car."

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

@ Intego

isnt it something to do with Webber being 10KGs heavier than Vettel?

The weight distrubution would not be exactly the same as that of Vettels car, and on starts perhaps this is a small reason why Webber struggles.

[raymondu999]

I still maintain my stance that Mark's advantage lies in his special super late apex technique to maximise an end without off throttle blowing. In 2010, until Spain, Seb was still ahead of Mark. If Seb's advantage only came due to end + cold/hot blowing, how do you explain Seb being on top of Mark at the end of last year by a smaller margin? Also in Valencia to Hungary.

Is it too hard to imagine Seb has actually become faster due to WDC confidence?

Also, the weight distribution issue is moot due to the mandated weight distribution rule this year. There is only a window of 7kg I believe. Unless you're telling me that rbr can't make a car 7kg underweight... C of G? I'll give you that, but not weight distribution