Pirelli 2013

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Ferrari2183
Ferrari2183
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Joined: 16 Mar 2012, 18:03

Pirelli 2013

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I have downloaded the 2011 race and watched it again. The problem is that it was closer between teams then.

Anyway, regarding the lap times have a look at them for yourself.

Vettel's 2011 lap times

Alonso's 2013 lap times

There is not much difference in lap times at all even at the start of the stints. I think all this tyre noise has created a placebo effect when watching.

Edit: Your analysis makes perfect sense but in the absence of any official data it's just grabbing at straws.

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turbof1
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Thank you for the information (very handy website I must say).

So taking a quick look at the times, this is what I got from the 2011 GP (Vettel) (I exclude outlaps, inlaps and the first lap):
-First stint (softs used):
Best lap: 1:30.023 (lap 6)
Worst lap: 1:30.633 (lap 2)
variance: 0.610s over 7 laps (stint is 9 laps, excluded the starting lap and the inlap due outliers)

-Second stint (softs used):
Best lap: 1:29.497 (lap 13)
Worst lap: 1:30.311 (lap 11)
variance: 0.814s over 7 laps (stint: 9 laps)

-Thirth stint (softs new):
Best lap: 1:27.394 (lap 21)
Worst lap: 1:30.247 (lap 33)
variance: 2.853s over 14 laps (stint: 16 laps) (rechecked; apperently at lap 33 he fell of the cliff and went one lap too much on that stint)

-fourth stint (hards used):
Best lap: 1:27.933 (lap 43)
Worst lap: 1:28.987 (lap 44)
variance: 1.064s over 12 laps (stint: 14 laps) (rechecked; got a bit hold up by traffic: Karthikeyan and Massa during lap 44)

-fifth stint (hards new):
Best lap: 1:27.162 (lap 60)
Worst lap: 1:28.382 (lap 66)
variance: 1.202s over 17 laps (stint: 18 laps)



And Alonso's 2013 race:
-First stint (mediums used):
Best lap: 1:30.646 (lap 4)
Worst lap: 1:31.517 (lap 3 ); will use lap 8,1:31.257, instead for worst lap. Lap 3 looks like an outlier.
variance: 0.611s over 7 laps (stint is 9 laps)

-Second stint (hards used):
Best lap: 1:28.703 (lap 14)
Worst lap: 1:30.658 (lap 11)
variance: 1.955s over 10 laps (stint is 12 laps)

-Thirth stint (hards new):
Best lap: 1:27.731 (lap 23)
Worst lap: 1:29.993 (lap 35)
variance: 2.262s over 13 laps (stint: 15 laps)

-fourth stint (mediums used):
Best lap: 1:27.440 (lap 39)
Worst lap: 1:28.580 (lap 48)
variance: 1.140s over 10 laps (stint: 12 laps)

-fifth stint (hards new):
Best lap: 1:26.681 (lap 53)
Worst lap: 1:32.611 (lap 66); I will not use that one; clearly he was coasting at the last lap and thus can be seen as an outlier. Lap 65, 1:29.414, will be used instead
variance: 2.733s over 17 laps (stint: 18 laps)

So checked back and up, and I feel like my theory got confirmed, atleast concerning laptime evolution. Vettel's 2011 laptimes were much more consistent, often doing for the stint fast laptimes at the end of the stint. Alonso laptimes are much downsloping: starting fast, but overall loosing each lap a bit of pace. You really have to look at the laptimes. Even comparison between worst and best lap of the stint is not telling everything.

That said, even by a simple worst-best lap comparison of a stint we can notice the following:
-the last stint of both of them are equal long and on the same type of tyre. Alonso's variance there is over 1.5s more then Vettel's 2011 one. That's much, and I already removed the last lap outlier (if I counted that one, Alonso's variance would have been over 5s). I didn't do that for Vettel because at the time he still was pushing to keep Hamilton behind him.
-Vettel made the mistake of going one lap too long on his thirth stint, loosing a second to lap 32. His variance would have been 0.5s less. That would have made the variance and stint length comparable to what Alonso did during his 3th stint, except that he drove the hard tyres in 2013 and Vettel the soft ones in 2011.
-The variances over the short stints and on the softer compound (2011 soft and 2013 medium) are comparable.
#AeroFrodo

Ferrari2183
Ferrari2183
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Joined: 16 Mar 2012, 18:03

Re: Pirelli 2013

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Bear in mind that Alonso was stuck behind Rosberg until lap 12 and thus those 2 slow laps after his stop were due to him being held up. I'd use the 30.3 at the end as his slow lap. I'd skip Alonso's 5th stint all together because the race was in the bag already and he was pretty much toying. His lap times are all over the place.

Vettel's second stint is so consistent because Alonso was holding him up and in the 3rd stint it looks like Vettel's tyres just hit the cliff as he was running on clear air.

Anyway, I think that Alonso was very much pushing only to play around in the final stint.

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turbof1
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Ferrari2183 wrote:Bear in mind that Alonso was stuck behind Rosberg until lap 12 and thus those 2 slow laps after his stop were due to him being held up. I'd use the 30.3 at the end as his slow lap. I'd skip Alonso's 5th stint all together because the race was in the bag already and he was pretty much toying. His lap times are all over the place.

Vettel's second stint is so consistent because Alonso was holding him up and in the 3rd stint it looks like Vettel's tyres just hit the cliff as he was running on clear air.

Anyway, I think that Alonso was very much pushing only to play around in the final stint.
It'll be difficult to filter everything. Vettel had many similar cases during his race where we could argue to filter that out. I think we can take Alonso's fifth stint as true pace (I don't agree his fifth stint was all over the place; in general the times were rising). It's consistent with his thirth stint. Vettel fifth stint also was the true pace, and both were in free air. So It's pretty much possible to compare those 2 stints.
#AeroFrodo

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Blackout
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Stella said Alonso had a puncture in his last stint. And the RBR had an EBD and was 4 kilos lighter in 2011 :mrgreen:

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turbof1
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Blackout wrote:Stella said Alonso had a puncture in his last stint. And the RBR had an EBD and was 4 kilos lighter in 2011 :mrgreen:
It was his fourth stint actually.
Alonso wrote:“We had to bring forward the final stop because of a slow puncture which meant the left rear tyre was losing pressure in the final part of the lap,” Alonso revealed after the race. “Fortunately, that had no effect on the final outcome.”
#AeroFrodo

Ferrari2183
Ferrari2183
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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turbof1 wrote:
Ferrari2183 wrote:Bear in mind that Alonso was stuck behind Rosberg until lap 12 and thus those 2 slow laps after his stop were due to him being held up. I'd use the 30.3 at the end as his slow lap. I'd skip Alonso's 5th stint all together because the race was in the bag already and he was pretty much toying. His lap times are all over the place.

Vettel's second stint is so consistent because Alonso was holding him up and in the 3rd stint it looks like Vettel's tyres just hit the cliff as he was running on clear air.

Anyway, I think that Alonso was very much pushing only to play around in the final stint.
It'll be difficult to filter everything. Vettel had many similar cases during his race where we could argue to filter that out. I think we can take Alonso's fifth stint as true pace (I don't agree his fifth stint was all over the place; in general the times were rising). It's consistent with his thirth stint. Vettel fifth stint also was the true pace, and both were in free air. So It's pretty much possible to compare those 2 stints.
I don't think so but I don't think we are going to agree on everything. From about lap 60 Alonso starts taking it easy but then responds to Raikkonen's pace on lap 62 after which he starts taking it easier again.

Anyway, I think the theory about driving to deltas to conserve the tyres is pretty much debunked.

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turbof1
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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In the case of Alonso: yes, absolutely. But to be fully honest, that wasn't anything new. Together with Raikkonen they were getting the most out of their tyres the whole race. If all cars were like that, the race would have been much more enjoyable.

Anyway, thank you again for the laptimes. I was wanting to do such an analysis for a few days; I feel like it comfirms what I was jibber-jabbering about; of course there are still multiple elements left ambigious, but like you said: agree to disagree :) .
#AeroFrodo

Hobbs04
Hobbs04
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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I hate to stir the pot anymore, but watching Indy 500 qualifying today made me think.These drivers are on the ragged edge almost putting it into the wall each turn. I know f1 don't do oval tracks but Indy is just different. How bad would Pirelli tires ruin the Indy 500? Just think how far we've gone in the wrong direction.

VIZSLA
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Location: Boston/Sarasota

Re: Pirelli 2013

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Hobbs04 wrote:I hate to stir the pot anymore, but watching Indy 500 qualifying today made me think.These drivers are on the ragged edge almost putting it into the wall each turn. I know f1 don't do oval tracks but Indy is just different. How bad would Pirelli tires ruin the Indy 500? Just think how far we've gone in the wrong direction.

Interesting observation.
There's no way they'd design or run anything but the best tires there.

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Cuky
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Joined: 07 Dec 2011, 19:41
Location: Rab, Croatia

Re: Pirelli 2013

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Well Indy uses tires specifically designed and used only at Indy500. They are stronger and much more durable than standard tires they use throughout the season. But it is not strange for me that those Firestone tires used in all other races are a lot like Bridgestone used to be in F1 as Firestone is subsidiary to Bridgestone. For example, Sato did almost 30 laps in Sao Paulo Indy300 (street race, last before Indy500) on softer (red marked) tire and he got in trouble only in last 2-3 laps of a race.

Nomore
Nomore
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Joined: 12 Mar 2013, 20:49

Re: Pirelli 2013

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Ferrari2183 wrote:I have downloaded the 2011 race and watched it again. The problem is that it was closer between teams then.

Anyway, regarding the lap times have a look at them for yourself.

Vettel's 2011 lap times

Alonso's 2013 lap times

There is not much difference in lap times at all even at the start of the stints. I think all this tyre noise has created a placebo effect when watching.

Edit: Your analysis makes perfect sense but in the absence of any official data it's just grabbing at straws.
@Ferrari2183

Not only you are right, but the similarities between those two races are enormous. Not only i terms of Pit stops (tires) but also rhythm, strategies and timing. The main differences by my personal opinion are:

2011- We had a close battle for the 1st place
2013- Alonso/Ferrari were too strong for 1st place.
2011- Two teams laped everyone.
2013- More close battle between teams.
2013- Alonso versus the end had a relaxed race, so no need too push.

But as i said previously, the best answer was given by "The Horse whisperer". With that being said, i stopped discussing about Barcelona2011 and Barcelona2013, because people will not change opinions...here we are in a sport, and as all sports, fan biased opinions are much more powerful than "what really happens"

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Pirelli 2013

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Nomore wrote:But as i said previously, the best answer was given by "The Horse whisperer". With that being said, i stopped discussing about Barcelona2011 and Barcelona2013, because people will not change opinions...here we are in a sport, and as all sports, fan biased opinions are much more powerful than "what really happens"
Are you not a fan as well?
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lebesset
lebesset
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Joined: 06 Aug 2008, 14:00

Re: Pirelli 2013

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Hobbs04 wrote:I hate to stir the pot anymore, but watching Indy 500 qualifying today made me think.These drivers are on the ragged edge almost putting it into the wall each turn. I know f1 don't do oval tracks but Indy is just different. How bad would Pirelli tires ruin the Indy 500? Just think how far we've gone in the wrong direction.

I watched this as well ...soon gave up , like watching paint dry

http://www.pitpass.com/49081-Making-the ... Step-Three

pretty much as I see it
to the optimist a glass is half full ; to the pessimist a glass is half empty ; to the F1 engineer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be

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MOWOG
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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And now.....the plot thickens. As several of you have suggested, changes to tires mid-season can only be done on the grounds of safety. Pirelli says there is no safety issue. And so the FIA is now saying that changes will not be allowed.

Being a fan of Formula One is a little like reading Alice in Wonderland over and over. "Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice. :roll:

Pirelli's Canada changes now under cloud


Pirelli's planned changes to its controversial tyres for Canada and beyond are now under a dark cloud. Media reports, including by Marco Canseco in the Spanish sports daily Marca, say the FIA has hit back by insisting that mid-season changes are only allowed on the grounds of safety.

But Pirelli's Paul Hembery had announced last week that the planned changes, for Montreal and beyond, are because "the number of pitstops was too high" so far in 2013. The FIA's opposite view is enshrined in the technical regulations.

At the very same time, Hembery hit out at teams like Red Bull and Mercedes, who have "used the media" to pile the pressure on Pirelli. "What has changed compared to the past two years," he told German newspaper Bild am Sonntag, "is that people have used the media in order to get a benefit for themselves. The people who criticise make the headlines," Hembery added, "but we have been contacted by many people who are asking us not to give in to the pressure."

So after Red Bull and Mercedes complained loudly about the changes, other teams like Lotus, Ferrari and Force India - whose cars work well with the existing 2013 tyres - are hitting back just as strongly. Lotus team owner Gerard Lopez told Welt am Sonntag newspaper that it is "stupid" that changes can be made "that punish the clever and creative teams" whilst "rewarding the losers. Where is the sport in that?" he quipped.

"I don't know exactly why Pirelli is making changes," Force India driver Paul di Resta is quoted by Speed Week, "but I've been told that everything is fair. "I suspect that the changes will hurt us, Ferrari and Lotus a little bit more than the others. "We invested a lot of time in the winter to get these tyres working, so of course these changes are a bit frustrating," he added.

Di Resta said he doubts Pirelli can justify the changes on the grounds of safety, as is required by the regulations. "I don't think they (the tyres) are dangerous," he insisted. "People have been getting excited about the last race, but we had no problems in the race. I think most of the tyre failures are down to driving over debris."

And if this has been posted previously, I apologize, but Ferrari had some unkind things to say about all this last week:



MAY 17, 2013
Ferrari joins Lotus in tyre tweak criticism

Ferrari has joined Lotus in criticising Pirelli's mid-season tyre tweak. Following early-season criticism, culminating in the furore after Barcelona recently, Pirelli announced it is making key changes to its controversial 2013 tyres for next month's Canadian grand prix and beyond.

Lotus team owner Gerard Lopez was the first to react, likening the change to widening football goals because one team was always striking the post.

Now, in the anonymous 'Horse Whisperer' column posted on the official Ferrari website, Ferrari has lashed out at those who claim four-stop strategies in F1 show that the tyres are too extreme. Undoubtedly, the Ferrari writer is referring to the kind of criticism made by world champions Red Bull.

"It's a shame that these worthy souls kept quiet two years ago when, at the very same Catalunya circuit and on the Istanbul track, five of the six drivers who got to those two podiums made exactly the same number of pitstops," the column read.

Ferrari also recalled the 2004 French grand prix, when Michael Schumacher won at Magny Cours with a four-stopper that left Ferrari and Bridgestone "showered with praise" within the paddock.

"Today however, it seems one must almost feel ashamed for choosing a strategy that, as always for that matter, is aimed at getting the most out of the package one has available," the column added.


Take THAT, Dr. Helmet Darko! :twisted:
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