Pirelli 2013

[Ferrari2183]

To be honest, I find aero fascinating too. Certainly more then tyre management.

Road car relevance is irrelevant anyway, simply because road cars are NOT for racing, neither are the roads themselves. If road cars didn't had speed limits and all roads were smooth, expect to have all cars diffusers and wings.

While aero and its efficiency is an interesting subject and will always be important in F1, it needs to be trimmed down massively from where it stands now. The current cars are capable of punching a hole in the air so big that an abnormal load truck can get a slipstream.

As MOWOG said the very detailed aero has only led to the ruination of the sport so much so that you're not able to follow closely enough in order to affect a pass due to massive downforce loss.

I have my doubts that even Bridgestone rocks wouldn't allow for overtaking with DRS due to the very small variance in pace between a worn set of tyres and a new set.

A few things came together that made passing possible previously, namely; less aero, more disparity in engine power and no rev limits. What we have now is a neutered version of the formula that just doesn't facilitate wheel to wheel racing and Pirelli is not responsible.

[turbof1]

While aero and its efficiency is an interesting subject and will always be important in F1, it needs to be trimmed down massively from where it stands now. The current cars are capable of punching a hole in the air so big that an abnormal load truck can get a slipstream.

They were able to do so also in the past. The problem sits in the fact that the current aero, call it micro aero if you will, disturbs the air massively. A consequence actually coming from the fia continually outruling development areas. In the end the teams can only perfect what they are still allowed to. I fear next years batch of aero removal will worsen the problem.

There are better options. Force teams to use flow straighteners to clean up the dirty air. Let them us aero that is less airflow disturbing, etc. The option of removing aero was used in 2009 and today we can say it horribly failed, it made the problem worse. Overtaking pre 2009 was much easier, and those cars were littered with aero appendages.

[FrukostScones]

To be honest, I find aero fascinating too. Certainly more then tyre management.

Road car relevance is irrelevant anyway, simply because road cars are NOT for racing, neither are the roads themselves. If road cars didn't had speed limits and all roads were smooth, expect to have all cars diffusers and wings.

While aero and its efficiency is an interesting subject and will always be important in F1, it needs to be trimmed down massively from where it stands now. The current cars are capable of punching a hole in the air so big that an abnormal load truck can get a slipstream.

As MOWOG said the very detailed aero has only led to the ruination of the sport so much so that you're not able to follow closely enough in order to affect a pass due to massive downforce loss.

I have my doubts that even Bridgestone rocks wouldn't allow for overtaking with DRS due to the very small variance in pace between a worn set of tyres and a new set.

A few things came together that made passing possible previously, namely; less aero, more disparity in engine power and no rev limits. What we have now is a neutered version of the formula that just doesn't facilitate wheel to wheel racing and Pirelli is not responsible.

of course are these Pirelli responsible, RAI VET "overtake"
blub, blub, esentially you are happy when Ferrari wins, and afraid of a ("mid season") Pirelli tyre change because you think that would give Red Bull an "unfair" advantage...
Ferrari is competitive this year on every tyre, so dont cry on the whole internet.

[turbof1]

Frukostcones, he isn't a fanboy. He makes a pretty good case for it, and his argument do not constantly involve ferrari.

The topic at hand goes way above fanboyism. And while I oppose the fact that the tyres are the correct ones, I do realise it isn't a black and white situation.

[Ferrari2183]

of course are these Pirelli responsible, RAI VET "overtake"
blub, blub, esentially you are happy when Ferrari wins, and afraid of a ("mid season") Pirelli tyre change because you think that would give Red Bull an "unfair" advantage...
Ferrari is competitive this year on every tyre, so dont cry on the whole internet.

So it is your contention that Pirelli is responsible for the state of Formula 1 as a whole... Ok then.

And while I am biased to Ferrari's situation (no secret really) in this instance, I am opposed to any mid season changes in general.

It sets dangerous precedent and is no good for an already struggling sport.

[lebesset]

To be honest, I find aero fascinating too. Certainly more then tyre management.

Road car relevance is irrelevant anyway, simply because road cars are NOT for racing, neither are the roads themselves. If road cars didn't had speed limits and all roads were smooth, expect to have all cars diffusers and wings.

While aero and its efficiency is an interesting subject and will always be important in F1, it needs to be trimmed down massively from where it stands now. The current cars are capable of punching a hole in the air so big that an abnormal load truck can get a slipstream.

As MOWOG said the very detailed aero has only led to the ruination of the sport so much so that you're not able to follow closely enough in order to affect a pass due to massive downforce loss.

I have my doubts that even Bridgestone rocks wouldn't allow for overtaking with DRS due to the very small variance in pace between a worn set of tyres and a new set.

A few things came together that made passing possible previously, namely; less aero, more disparity in engine power and no rev limits. What we have now is a neutered version of the formula that just doesn't facilitate wheel to wheel racing and Pirelli is not responsible.

well , I am certainly not a tifosi , but would have to agree that the importance of aero is the thing that needs a drastic reduction to give us the sort of F1 that most people want

is it not ridiculous that pirelli are told to make marginal tyres ? not the best tyres they can ?
is DRS not equally ridiculous ...we now have drive by's instead of overtaking
has not the importance of the driver been reduced by current car designs?
what happened to the days when a small team with bright ideas could attract a top driver and be a winning team ? what chance would ken tyrell have today ?
small standard wings and scrap DRS ....would reduce costs to help the smaller teams compete ; better racing

[Richard]

is it not ridiculous that pirelli are told to make marginal tyres ? not the best tyres they can ?
...
what happened to the days when a small team with bright ideas

Do we really need to repeat the "everlasting tyres" debate every 2 or 3 pages?

Lets take a small team with clever ideas, guile and wits. A team like Sauber? Their success in the last few years is because they have been able to use their small budget to design a car that was easy on its tyres with the result that they won a lot of points on strategy.

The point is that F1 is muti-dimensional. To have everlasting tyres with maximum grip would neuter it, make it single dimensional. Even less variety than we have now. Strategy is always been a major part of F1, and always should be.

[MOWOG]

I have dozens of books on the matter, magazines and have visited most of the meaningful speeches for F1 Aero designers and I can put money that aero is not boring.

My good sir. I misspoke. Aero IS fascinating - as a scientific inquiry. There are any number of books written about how to drive a race car well and all of them contain information that is fascinating to us fans. However, I tend not to read books while watching a race. It makes it hard to follow the action!

I submit that the ordinary fan has no idea what all those doodads and curlicues on the front wings of modern F1 cars are or what they do. Most of us get a secret thrill when some of those go fast accouterments get knocked off in the race and the car goes FASTER! In terms of watching the race, does anyone ever say "Wow. Kimi's exhaust exit system is really working today!" Or "I like that the diffuser on the McLaren is .047 mm narrower than the one on the Ferrari and that is why Jensen is 0.007 seconds faster in Sector 2".

Intellectually, I find aerodynamics fascinating. As a race fan, if Jim Hall were alive, I would punch him in the nose!

[lebesset]

is it not ridiculous that pirelli are told to make marginal tyres ? not the best tyres they can ?
...
what happened to the days when a small team with bright ideas

Do we really need to repeat the "everlasting tyres" debate every 2 or 3 pages?

Lets take a small team with clever ideas, guile and wits. A team like Sauber? Their success in the last few years is because they have been able to use their small budget to design a car that was easy on its tyres with the result that they won a lot of points on strategy.

The point is that F1 is muti-dimensional. To have everlasting tyres with maximum grip would neuter it, make it single dimensional. Even less variety than we have now. Strategy is always been a major part of F1, and always should be.

obviously I didn't make my point clearly ...for me strategy is the essence of F1 , I just don't like the way it is being brought about ...a certain person at the head of RBR complains about the tyres saying that is inhibiting the racing ...for me it is aero that is doing that ; in their attempt to follow their brief pirelli have produced tyres that are too marginal , largely , in my opinion , because they have no facility to track test with a satisfactory vehicle under representative conditions , and it is difficult to see the solution to that
so reduce aero to levels where it is not necessary to design the tyres to be factor that produces close racing , nor to DRS so that cars can overtake ; if mechanical grip returns to it's rightful importance cars that make better use of their fuel and tyres will still have an advantage
why infer that everlasting tyres are the best ? and with reduced downforce how everlasting would they be anyway

[Richard]

in their attempt to follow their brief pirelli have produced tyres that are too marginal , largely , in my opinion , because they have no facility to track test with a satisfactory vehicle under representative conditions , and it is difficult to see the solution to that

Good point. One can't help but think Pirelli have been caught in a perfect storm. A new supplier with little to no relevant experience of F1 being asked to tread a fine line between success and failure that's not be tried before, combined with limitations on testing.

Bridgestone could have made their tyres more sensitive in subtle steps from a known baseline but Pirelli had to start from a blank sheet of paper.

[Cam]

The point is that F1 is muti-dimensional. To have everlasting tyres with maximum grip would neuter it, make it single dimensional. Even less variety than we have now. Strategy is always been a major part of F1, and always should be.

I disagree. Let me explain.

When you look back at the pillars that the sport is built on, the history, you see dominance, individual brilliance and engineering marvels. Not strategy. To give but a few examples - the Silver Arrows absolutely dominated the sport and built a reputation that stands today - McLaren/Honda, does anymore need to be said - Williams active suspension - nothing touched those cars - Ferrari & Schumacher - the epitome of dominance - RB7, supreme.

Strategy was nowhere to be seen. Teams were not pre-planning out stops to get a 'undercut' nor were they ever considering letting other cars past on track to hopefully wash out near the top at the finish. There was but one goal - build the fastest car and leave everyone for dust. That's the goal of every racer. That's what we've lost.

'Strategy' is a PR term used to validate having a close show - which is what the powers that be want only because they said they had falling numbers of viewers. Simple. This has nothing to do with the preservation of the sport, or the spirit of the sport - it's numbers and cash. They could of all taken a cash hit and kept the sport 'pure' - but they all sold out for the highest dollar and created a bastard child of advertising & racing - that no-one is happy is with.

Note: apologies for the coarse word - but it's used for emphasise.

[VIZSLA]

in their attempt to follow their brief pirelli have produced tyres that are too marginal , largely , in my opinion , because they have no facility to track test with a satisfactory vehicle under representative conditions , and it is difficult to see the solution to that

Good point. One can't help but think Pirelli have been caught in a perfect storm. A new supplier with little to no relevant experience of F1 being asked to tread a fine line between success and failure that's not be tried before, combined with limitations on testing.

Bridgestone could have made their tyres more sensitive in subtle steps from a known baseline but Pirelli had to start from a blank sheet of paper.

I don't think that any tire maker could have succeeded.
They were tasked in producing a tire that would deliberately fail and fail in a consistent manner under a wide variety of circumstances.
Whether or not one thinks this an appropriate brief, by nature, its an almost impossible task.

[Jersey Tom]

I don't think that any tire maker could have succeeded.

No? Seems there had been single suppliers for decades where there was good racing without tread delams or wild fall off.

[VIZSLA]

I don't think that any tire maker could have succeeded.

No? Seems there had been single suppliers for decades where there was good racing without tread delams or wild fall off.

None in the past have been directed to construct tires that have a limited life.

[Jonnycraig]

I don't think that any tire maker could have succeeded.

No? Seems there had been single suppliers for decades where there was good racing without tread delams or wild fall off.

None in the past have been directed to construct tires that have a limited life.

The tyres in 2011 had limited life and were not wildly criticised. Even in 2012, people embraced the 7 from 7 element. Then this year they clearly went too far and have been rightly criticised for doing so.

As an aside, Vettel claims Lotus drivers are complaining as much as anyone in the driver meetings:

Red Bull's Sebastian Vettel said: "In the media, it looks like Red Bull is complaining, but I hear the drivers' voices in the meetings we have together, and if you pinpoint Lotus and say they have the best car for these tyres, still their drivers complain.

"They have the same problem as us but to a lesser extent."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22624756