Pirelli 2013

[Pierce89]

Actually the ones most to blame are FIA for giving allowance for breaking the rules and doing this in rather stupid way. Instead of letting Pirelli handle this sensitive matter, they should have defined and surveiled the test and most of all they should have negotiated this with all teams. Again a bad display of management of FIA... And I suppose again they will find a scapegoat...I really hope Merc gets just a fine, all teams are allowed to run the same test and FIA gets told how to run things properly. How many times do we have to tolerate all these moronic screw-ups?

I think you are a bit blue eyed here. The FiA is dealing with the F1 conflicts at arms length and have tried to be rather neutral while the teams have been fighting out all this antagonism. They have no reason to wade into the conflict and promote one team or a tyre supplier over other competitors. In fact is was reported that the FiA would like to see Michelin making a bid for the next tyre contract. So they may have looked upon Pirelli's problems to do 2014 tyre testing with some sympathy to keep it a level contest between Pirelli and Michelin.

We do know that a 2014 tyre test with current 2013 machinery is legal if it is undertaken by Pirelli. They are allowed to test. So the matter for the tribunal is simply to decide whether the Barcelona test qualifies as a Pirelli test with Mercedes support or not. If they find that Mercedes themselves ran the test there will be punishment. But I have my doubts that Ross is so dumb to put himself at risk in such a way. He is an old fox in that business. He will have made sure that he had some circumstances in the test that make legal precedents applicable. He sounded awfully confident when he was officially commenting in the press conference. You do not speak that way unless you have a killer hand to uncover to speak in poker terms.

Everything you said makes sense, but with Merc operating the car(which requires seeing the data from the sensors just to keep the car alive) and Merc drivers, I don't see how Merc can claim Pirelli "ran the test". Unless Merc just handed over their current car, they had to have a hand in running the test.

Merc was trying to gain an advantage just like Ferrari tried to gain an advantage. F1 teams don't do altruism. The difference between the Merc and Ferrari tests is that by using a 2011 car, Ferrari stayed within the sporting regs.

[Dragonfly]

We do know that a 2014 tyre test with current 2013 machinery is legal if it is undertaken by Pirelli. They are allowed to test.

I am afraid "we" do not know exactly this.
As far as we know FIA only said a possibility exists. Which possibility might include a change in the rules agreed with the teams or forced upon on safety grounds. At present I think there is no evidence about explicit permission from FIA.

[WhiteBlue]

We do know that a 2014 tyre test with current 2013 machinery is legal if it is undertaken by Pirelli. They are allowed to test.

I am afraid "we" do not know exactly this.
As far as we know FIA only said a possibility exists. Which possibility might include a change in the rules agreed with the teams or forced upon on safety grounds. At present I think there is no evidence about explicit permission from FIA.

I believe you are in error there. The regulations apply only to competitors, not to tyre suppliers. So taking a Merc car and running it themselves without any support from Merc would have definitely been legal. But it goes without saying that you cannot operate an F1 car without engineering support of the team. You cannot even start an F1 car unless you have team equipment and engineers on site to handle proprietary aspects of the technology. So there had to be an involvement of Mercedes in any case to enable Pirelli to run any test with a 2013 Merc car. As I have pointed out it is the nature of the support which will be under scrutiny. If the tribunal deems the level of support exceeded the limits of a test "run" by Pirelli and effectively made it a Mercedes test, we will see a guilty verdict.

[WhiteBlue]

I just don't understand when it is their task to make sure all rules are obeyed they basically hand over resposibility concerning sporting regs over to Pirelli (who are not bound by the sporting regs) by just vaguely pointing out all teams should be given the same opportunity.

It is not the duty of the FiA to supervise private tests of tyre suppliers. That is why they are called private. They did exactly what they were supposed to do. Let the acting parties do their job.

At least they should have either made clear t Pirelli how this should happen or just informed all teams themselves. If anything by acting like they did they did not keep neutral anymore but participated in the conflict by giving the option of one team to take advantage without the other teams being noticed.

You fail to see that commercial interests were at stake here and the FiA was potentially somewhat involved. If they had informed the teams about something that Pirelli wanted to keep private they had taken a hostile position towards Pirelli which they are not supposed to do. Did they have a compelling reason to do so? I think not.

[kaller]

Ok I undestand you now WB. Although I think FIA would have means to talk to team principals with some sort of "keep it secret" instruction. Even if they don't, they should have pointed out how exactly Pirelli should handle this issue regarding the testing opportunity of the other teams. Either this or they should have said from the start "We can't decide over this". But giving them a virtual go with some vague condition and then relying on a participant which is not bound on these conditions to fulfill these said conditions seems a little bit irritating. All this havoc with regard to the 2031 car, other teams getting the same opportunity etc. could have easily been avoided if FIA would have handled things different. Actually the whole structure was wrong from the beginning: You should not have have a private contract with a certain party that is not bound to the sporting regs and make them responsible to supervise/prevent a possible breach of these regulations. Why does FIA not supervise these tests? they could ask Pirelli what they wanted to test, ask the team how they want to achieve the test results and then tell if this is ok or not. No questions would arise, and no Pirelli competetor would have an advantage. Or am I missing smth here?

[diffuser]

The only reason Ferrari and Lotus is quiet is because the tires happened to work brilliantly for their cars.
Had we gotten super durable tires they would have started screaming just like RBR and Merc do today.

Sorry, they are super durable! Just NOT to Merc and RBR. Why don't we just ask RBR at Merc exactly what they'd like in a tire. Lets make it easy for the to figure it out. Why don't they design the tire that works best for them and ask everyone else to use it? We can go one step further ? RBR please tell us which team is your biggest competitor, what piece of technology that they uses that most improves they're cars ability and we'll outlaw it!!!


Lets not forget they only people UNHAPPY about the tires are RBR and MERC. Everybody else are in favour of them. You can easily add Force India and Sauber to your list. Probably a few others.

The other thing that is strange about this is many people think that the reason Merc and RBR have more problems with it's tires is because they generates more downforce. Although that maybe correct, I don't think there has been any confirmation that is the issue. Otherwise you'd think that would be something fairly easy for resolve.

[WhiteBlue]

Why does FIA not supervise these tests? they could ask Pirelli what they wanted to test, ask the team how they want to achieve the test results and then tell if this is ok or not. No questions would arise, and no Pirelli competetor would have an advantage. Or am I missing smth here?

The FiA is not supposed to supervise private testing as I have explained already. If they are asked to monitor a private test the question arises who pays. So in the first place Pirelli would have been obliged to ask for monitoring and offer payment for it. I have already pointed out that Pirelli were not interested to potentially feed trade secrets to any competitors by involving anybody they could do without at the test. The FiA was at least seen to be interested to get Michelin into pole position for the 2014 to 2016 contract. That would have given Pirelli some food for thoughts. So realistically nobody involved had any interest to follow the path of action you proposed and naturally things evolved as they did.

[diffuser]

Looks like Pirelli are looking for other ways to "Fix" the delamination problems http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/form ... 18740.html . Only 2 teams (wonder who they are ) that want the changes to the tires. I guess the tires are pretty good then ? Or ...Only 2 teams think they're cr@p.

In my Opinion "the tire" issue has only become what it is because certain teams and drivers are trying to effect change in the tire spec. They are trying to effect this change cause they poorly prepared for this specific spec of tire in the off season.

I think most would be in agreement at this time that the tires are crap. Maybe opinions are still spread about whether or not the amount of tire deg is reasonable. I think ordering drivers to drive to a slow target time is a slap in the face to the concept of motor racing, personally. Even if you don't agree with that, throwing treads (and then subsequently lying about them being "punctures" before admitting they're delams) is unacceptable at this level of motor racing. Teams may be terrified of tire changes as the last time Pirelli did a round of them (steel belts) the treads starting falling off.

Supplying poor data is likewise a poor showing IMO. To your point of being prepared on the off season... I've mentioned this before, if Pirelli give the teams these wind tunnel tires which produce bogus results, the more you effort you put going down that road in the off season the more you're screwed by being lead down the wrong road.

Can we name a single race series where Pirelli have been exceptional? Wasn't when they were in F1 decades ago in open competition. Wasn't Stock Car Brasil. Don't think it's anything they're involved in now.

There should be a penalty for complaining about the tires. They should be treated as officials get treated in many sports. You complain against the officiating both the driver and the team get fined.

You might find that this is exactly why more people or teams aren't outspoken at the moment. Most series don't take kindly to stomping on a series sponsor, though certainly if your tires are failing you have to say something.

I just feel like enough's enough. But no one else is going to pick up the F1 contract I'd imagine. Maybe I'm wrong.

BTW, I'm not saying that I like the tires...This might also apply to the majority of the teams.... They are what they are (likely cause that's what F1 wanted) and changing in mid season is wrong. To me it would be the equivalent of having forced a close throttle when when the driver was off the throttle a few years back. Happily on that issue the rules were return to norm after Silverstone.


BTW, Those bogus wind tunnel results cause the tires to degrade prematurely ? OH, and only RBR and Merc got those bogus results?

While we're at it why don't we outlaw racing in the rain? I'm sure that has an effect on how fast they can go?

[WhiteBlue]

The other thing that is strange about this is many people think that the reason Merc and RBR have more problems with it's tires is because they generates more downforce. Although that maybe correct, I don't think there has been any confirmation that is the issue. Otherwise you'd think that would be something fairly easy for resolve.

The thing that is obvious from the free practise and the qualifying in Canada is a division between the four top scoring teams with regard to downforce and heat generation in the tyres.

On one end of the scale you have Lotus that generate the least heat and struggle in wet and cold conditions, but they look brilliant in the races. They obviously have a lack of downforce compared to Red Bull.

On the other end of the scale you have Red Bull who have the most downforce but generate too much heat in hot conditions to minimize the tyre stops and keep the performance up.

Ferrari probably have the best balance to the two requirements so far. They are fast enough under normal conditions to qualify on the second and third row. In the races they have the best compromise of downforce and tyre performance potential so that they had the best chances to make points. They have to a certain extend under utilized their advantage so far.

Merc is another extreme which does not really help to win races. They overheat the rear wheels and that has destroyed most of their performance potential in the races.

I think this year it is not a case of taking three races to understand the tyres and then doing a development race for the team that generates more downforce. The teams will have to work on the suspension to have the tyres generate as much heat as is needed under variable circumstances. So beside the downforce you will have another development goal which is the ability to control the rate at which the heat is generated in the tyres. In the end the team that does both jobs best will have the upper hand.

I think that will suit Pirelli quite a bit. They want to generate tyre talk all season long and they have scored big time with it this year. So they must be satisfied in Italy with the job Hembry has done so far.

[Ganxxta]

I think that will suit Pirelli quite a bit. They want to generate tyre talk all season long and they have scored big time with it this year. So they must be satisfied in Italy with the job Hembry has done so far.

Regarding this bit...
I know that "any news is good news", but delaminations of tyres, pit stops after 5-7 laps, complaining by teams + drivers,at least for me and everyone I asked (people that usually don't care about all details), Pirelli has lost huge credibility.

Some people even say they are afraid that street legal Pirelli tyres might behave like the F1 ones (high degradation), I don't know how this could be beneficial for Pirelli at all.

[WhiteBlue]

We just had a very interesting statement by Toto Wolf on Sky Germany. He said:

If Pirelli generate data it is a Pirelli test. If Mercedes generates data it is a Mercedes test. We did not generate any data.

That seems to stipulate that Merc handed their telemetry over to Pirelli and had independent legal observers on site to testify for that. It could be one explanation for their confidence.

[turbof1]

i think everything will boil down to that, and will be mercedes' defence. Proof for that can be sufficient as Pirelli testifying Mercedes had no hand in the data. No hand in the data --> enough indication that Mercedes did not run the test --> no breach in the sporting rules --> no conviction.

Everything else, like not notifying the FIA and offering the same oppertunity to the different teams is not Mercedes their concern. That was Pirelli their job, and the Tribunal is not allowed to judge Pirelli for that. That has to be done in a private court, and I don't see the FIA putting in that kind of effort.

[diffuser]

The other thing that is strange about this is many people think that the reason Merc and RBR have more problems with it's tires is because they generates more downforce. Although that maybe correct, I don't think there has been any confirmation that is the issue. Otherwise you'd think that would be something fairly easy for resolve.

The thing that is obvious from the free practise and the qualifying in Canada is a division between the four top scoring teams with regard to downforce and heat generation in the tyres.

On one end of the scale you have Lotus that generate the least heat and struggle in wet and cold conditions, but they look brilliant in the races. They obviously have a lack of downforce compared to Red Bull.

On the other end of the scale you have Red Bull who have the most downforce but generate too much heat in hot conditions to minimize the tyre stops and keep the performance up.

Ferrari probably have the best balance to the two requirements so far. They are fast enough under normal conditions to qualify on the second and third row. In the races they have the best compromise of downforce and tyre performance potential so that they had the best chances to make points. They have to a certain extend under utilized their advantage so far.

Merc is another extreme which does not really help to win races. They overheat the rear wheels and that has destroyed most of their performance potential in the races.

I think this year it is not a case of taking three races to understand the tyres and then doing a development race for the team that generates more downforce. The teams will have to work on the suspension to have the tyres generate as much heat as is needed under variable circumstances. So beside the downforce you will have another development goal which is the ability to control the rate at which the heat is generated in the tyres. In the end the team that does both jobs best will have the upper hand.

I think that will suit Pirelli quite a bit. They want to generate tyre talk all season long and they have scored big time with it this year. So they must be satisfied in Italy with the job Hembry has done so far.

I agree with you, with the exception of attributing the heat generated in the tires to more downforce. I agree that downforce does have an effect, there are other things that they're having problems controlling that are causing the heat or lacK of... Brakes, brake material, suspension movement, exhaust gases just to name a few.


I'm surprised by your take on the publicity on the tires. I would have figured that it is the kind of publicity Pirelli wouldn't want. Maybe you're on to something there.

[turbof1]

One should also be looking to the world outside F1. I haven't seen any newspaper paying much attention to the delaminations or pirelli in general. If anything, the testing debacle being put down to Mercedes. only the F1 specific news sites go into detail.

I don't think Pirelli is being either hurt or aided by what little publicity the matter actually gets.

[Huntresa]

One should also be looking to the world outside F1. I haven't seen any newspaper paying much attention to the delaminations or pirelli in general. If anything, the testing debacle being put down to Mercedes. only the F1 specific news sites go into detail.

I don't think Pirelli is being either hurt or aided by what little publicity the matter actually gets.

I would be glad if i lived in a country that had motorsport in the sport sections of newspapers each week...