Pirelli 2013

[Cam]

There is only one rule, the one in the sporting regs. I don't see how Merc could argue that the contract between the FIA and Pirelli could alleviate the need for Merc to follow the sporting regs. Pirelli's contract is just that: A contract with an outside supplier. That has nothing to do with the requirement for teams to follow the regs.

You need to read the thread to understand why the regulations probably have not been broken at all. The regulations prohibit competitors to run in season tests. Mercedes will argue that they did not run the test and that Pirelli was the party that run the test using their cars and drivers. So it is not a question of the Pirelli contract alleviating the requirement for teams to follow the regs. The simple question for the tribunal to discover is who ran the test. Was the team sufficiently fire walled from the running of the test to claim no significant involvement. I find it entirely possible that the tribunal will find that. The only team members closely involved in the test so far seem to be the drivers and they have no team responsibility under their FiA license. If some other team members with FiA license such as the directors or race engineers were involved that would be a much bigger problem. In that case Mercedes would be guilty as hell.

It couldn't be simpler. How some people insist on defending Merc and Pirelli is beyond impressive as the rule was obviously and unquestionably broken.

You are obviously wrong! Read the thread!

I do like that theory WB. It's going to be difficult to firewall I think. If just one team person took a photo, saw a tyre, or glimpsed data, then that theory is in trouble.

Ultimately, the varasity of the Trubunal will also play a part. Just how far will they dig?

That an obviously second agenda is at play here too, must only reinforce the fear other manufacturers and sponsors will have. Same games played by the same players for their own ends. That is what needs to be rectified out of all of this.

[WhiteBlue]

More like MrE coersed Pirelli to it, in order for Mercedes to gain five races worth of mid-season testing time. Or so I think.

It looks more like three race distances to me, but generally you seem to have hit the nail on the head.

Correct, but it is sad that Mercedes is to such a value for MrE that he takes a page out of Vince McMahon's book.

We should not be surprised. Bernie knows how to exploit drama for marketing. This charade has some entertainment value as the continued discussion in the media and in this thread testifies. Once in a while you need some scandals like stolen drawings, rigged races or broken test regulations to get the mouths wagging and the press to unleash a torrent of publicity for F1.

[xpensive]

...
We should not be surprised. Bernie knows how to exploit drama for marketing. This charade has some entertainment value as the continued discussion in the media and in this thread testifies. Once in a while you need some scandals like stolen drawings, rigged races or broken test regulations to get the mouths wagging and the press to unleash a torrent of publicity for F1.

Very true, but this about keeping the three-pointed star happy with their involvement, only Ferrari has more value to MrE.

[WhiteBlue]

It still looks a bit like a trojan horse gift to me to be the true explanation for Bernie's dealings. Inside the package there are some dangers as the call for the IT has shown. Ultimately Bernie always acts for his own purposes. Power and money.

[GTSpeedster]

It couldn't be simpler. How some people insist on defending Merc and Pirelli is beyond impressive as the rule was obviously and unquestionably broken.

You are obviously wrong! Read the thread!

Excuse me but since when does anyone need to read a thread in an internet forum to be told what is or isn't correct about anything? And told by whom? Certainly not by someone so blindly biased like you...

But just to be clear I've read every single post of this thread since the secret test took place, including yours, which, to be frank, more often than not made me feel quite second handed embarrassed.

No real racing fan should ever condone incorrect or improper acts even (and perhaps specially) when perpetrated by their beloved teams or drivers or whomever!

[Pierce89]

There is only one rule, the one in the sporting regs. I don't see how Merc could argue that the contract between the FIA and Pirelli could alleviate the need for Merc to follow the sporting regs. Pirelli's contract is just that: A contract with an outside supplier. That has nothing to do with the requirement for teams to follow the regs.

You need to read the thread to understand why the regulations probably have not been broken at all. The regulations prohibit competitors to run in season tests. Mercedes will argue that they did not run the test and that Pirelli was the party that ran the test using Merc's cars and drivers. So it is not a question of the Pirelli contract alleviating the requirement for teams to follow the regs. The simple question for the tribunal to discover is who ran the test. Was the team sufficiently fire walled from the running of the test to claim no significant involvement. I find it entirely possible that the tribunal will find that. The only team members closely involved in the test so far seem to be the drivers and they have no team responsibility under their FiA license. If some other team members with FiA license such as the directors or race engineers were involved that would be a much bigger problem. In that case Mercedes would be guilty as hell.

It couldn't be simpler. How some people insist on defending Merc and Pirelli is beyond impressive as the rule was obviously and unquestionably broken.

You are obviously wrong! Read the thread!
Edited they wouldn't for grammar. WB

You know I've read the thread. I just feel Merc at the very least had more to do with the test than just providing a car. If Pirelli "ran the test" there shouldn't be any need for Merc's race team to stick around. Surely Merc was operating the car, which requires them to see significant data. IDK, I just think Merc benefitted significantly or they wouldn't have been there. Besides, if it was development for 2014, an older car with less DF would seemingly be better suited.

[turbof1]

Excuse me but since when does anyone need to read a thread in an internet forum to be told what is or isn't correct about anything? And told by whom? Certainly not by someone so blindly biased like you...

But just to be clear I've read every single post of this thread since the secret test took place, including yours, which, to be frank, more often than not made me feel quite second handed embarrassed.

No real racing fan should ever condone incorrect or improper acts even (and perhaps specially) when perpetrated by their beloved teams or drivers or whomever!

IMO, trying to put people who have a different opinion in disrespute is on the same level as or even worse then fanboyism. Yes, Whiteblue was a bit over the top with that comment, but I find the remark "no real racing fan should condone incorrect or improper acts" way out of line. So you are basicilly saying because we have a different opinion and view on the matter, that we are no real racing fans? Or you think that because Whiteblue has an old mercedes car on his avatar that he automatically is a fan of the current mercedes team? And even if he is so, do you think any of us would let our judgement be clouded by that?

I share the opinion that the very simplistic view "it is against the word of the rules, end of story" is just that: too simplistic. Mercedes doesn't house morons. They must have good reasons to believe that what they did was not out of line.

Atleast take an example from Cam. He actually puts in quite alot of effort into making constructive arguments why mercedes is in the wrong and will be proven wrong.

[GSpeedR]

If Merc's 2013 car was involved in a test at a sanctioned track then it is undoubtedly an advantage over their competitors. Even if no Merc engineers were present (which is absurd, BTW), the Mercedes drivers and components were getting track time, both of which are significant. I don't know the details of who permitted the test with the current vehicle, but it should certainly be a big deal to the other teams.

In my opinion, Mercedes should either be punished for blatantly cheating or for their stupidity.

[WhiteBlue]

I just feel Merc at the very least had more to do with the test than just providing a car. If Pirelli "ran the test" there shouldn't be any need for Merc's race team to stick around. Surely Merc was operating the car, which requires them to see significant data. IDK, I just think Merc benefitted significantly or they wouldn't have been there. Besides, if it was development for 2014, an older car with less DF would seemingly be better suited.

How do you come to the conclusion that Merc's race team was around at the private test. My information so far is that the drivers were available and on site. Do you have specifics about the presence of anybody else beyond the drivers?

[turbof1]

Well, to be honest: it would be a fair assumption that they were. The car had to be packed anyway after the test. So even if Mercedes dis not got any view on the data, they would have been around.

And common, we are all grown ups and do know how the world is. It would be pretty naive to think Mercedes did not got some sort of advantage out of the test. Which is ok for me. They saw an oppertunity, they took it. Every team who sees an oppertunity and deems it legal would go for it instead of pondering whether it's ethical or not. The advantage might seem unfair but in the end it is nothing more then mercedes shaking the given hand.

[WhiteBlue]

Excuse me but since when does anyone need to read a thread in an internet forum to be told what is or isn't correct about anything? And told by whom? Certainly not by someone so blindly biased like you...

• Firstly I find it appropriate to read a thread if someone wants to make informed posts and comments.
• Secondly I assumed that you did not read the thread because you made points that had already been debunked.
• Thirdly, I'm not biased at all and particularly not blindly biased. Quite contrary I feel that I'm very well informed, have in depth knowledge of the legal and regulation aspects of this case and have posted a well considered and balanced opinion.

I would appreciate if you could match those standards in your participation on this forum.

[WhiteBlue]

If Merc's 2013 car was involved in a test at a sanctioned track then it is undoubtedly an advantage over their competitors. Even if no Merc engineers were present (which is absurd, BTW), the Mercedes drivers and components were getting track time, both of which are significant.

Nobody disputes that that Mercedes got an advantage from supporting the private Pirelli test. At least I'm not doing it. The relevant question is whether they had any control over the test by being involved with significant engineering and management resources. That question is to be answered by the IT and we commonly have no information either way.

In my opinion, Mercedes should either be punished for blatantly cheating or for their stupidity.

That appears to be an unbalanced and biased opinion because you automatically assume that Mecedes will be found guilty of breaking the regulations. As we have learned from the legal experts cited in this thread there is a strong possibility that the tribunal finds Mercedes was not in breach of the regulations. Until the IT gives a ruling on the issue IMO Mercedes are entitled to the assumption of innocence as any other defendant.

[WhiteBlue]

Well, to be honest: it would be a fair assumption that they were. The car had to be packed anyway after the test. So even if Mercedes dis not got any view on the data, they would have been around.

It is quite possible that the necessary people have trained Pirelli personnel in the use of the Mercedes equipment and did not attend the test. Later Pirelli handed the equipment back to Mercedes - after erasing all data storage - for removal of the equipment from the test location. It would be an unusual procedure but nothing about this test was done as usual. They must have made some very concerned considerations before they went ahead with it. Again I'm not saying it was done that way. I simply point out how it could have been done.

[xpensive]

To believe anything else than this free mid-season test-session was anything but a gift from MrE to MGP is utterly naive.

I think.

[strad]

Cam; That's why I think the tribunal will pass it off saying the FIA need to clarify and sort out their position as regards conflicting messages.
bounce it back to another court so to speak.