Pirelli 2013

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Pirelli wrote:After exhaustive analysis of the tyres used at Silverstone, Pirelli has concluded that the causes of the failures were principally down to a combination of the following factors:

1) Rear tyres that were mounted the wrong way round: in other words, the right hand tyre being placed where the left hand one should be and vice versa, on the cars that suffered failures. The tyres supplied this year have an asymmetric structure, which means that they are not designed to be interchangeable. The sidewalls are designed in such a way to deal with specific loads on the internal and external sides of the tyre. So swapping the tyres round has an effect on how they work in certain conditions. In particular, the external part is designed to cope with the very high loads that are generated while cornering at a circuit as demanding as Silverstone, with its rapid left-hand bends and some kerbs that are particularly aggressive.

2) The use of tyre pressures that were excessively low or in any case lower than those indicated by Pirelli. Under-inflating the tyres means that the tyre is subjected to more stressful working conditions.

3) The use of extreme camber angles.

4) Kerbing that was particularly aggressive on fast corners, such as that on turn four at Silverstone, which was the scene of most of the failures. Consequently it was the left-rear tyres that were affected.

The only problems that had come to light before Silverstone were to do with delamination, which was a completely different phenomenon. To stop these delaminations Pirelli found a solution by suggesting that the teams use the tyres that were tried out in Canada from Silverstone onwards. When this proposal was not accepted, Pirelli found another solution through laboratory testing, with a different bonding process to attach the tread to the carcass. So the problem of delamination has nothing at all to do with what was seen in Great Britain.

Following the conclusions of this analysis, Pirelli would like to underline that:

1) Mounting the tyres the wrong way round is a practice that was nonetheless underestimated by everybody: above all Pirelli, which did not forbid this.

2) In the same way, under-inflation of the tyres and extreme camber settings, over which Pirelli has no control, are choices that can be dangerous under certain circumstances. Because of this, Pirelli has asked the FIA for these parameters will be a topic of accurate and future examinations. Pirelli has also asked for compliance with these rules to be checked by a dedicated delegate.

3) Pirelli would also like to underline that the 2013 tyre range does not compromise driver safety in any way if used in the correct manner, and that it meets all the safety standards requested by the FIA.

The logical conclusion is that it is essential for tyres with the performance and technical sophistication of the 2013 range to be regulated and carefully controlled by Pirelli itself. In order to ensure the optimal functioning of the tyres, the Italian firm would need real-time data from the teams regarding fundamental parameters such as pressure, temperature and camber angles. While waiting for new regulations that would permit Pirelli access to this data, vital for the development and management of these state-of-the-art tyres, the following measures are proposed for the forthcoming grands prix, in agreement with the FIA, FOM, the teams and the drivers:

1) The use of the evolution of the current tyre that was tested in Canada (and proved to be completely reliable) for the German Grand Prix this weekend. This represents the best match for the technical characteristics of the Nurburgring circuit. In particular, the rear tyres that will be used at the German Grand Prix, which takes place on July 7, have a Kevlar construction that replaces the current steel structure and the re-introduction of the 2012 belt, to ensure maximum stability and roadholding. Given that these tyres are asymmetric as well, it will be strictly forbidden to swap them round. The front tyres, by contrast, will remain unaltered.

2) From the Hungarian Grand Prix onwards, the introduction of a new range of tyres. The new tyres will have a symmetrical structure, designed to guarantee maximum safety even without access to tyre data – which however is essential for the optimal function of the more sophisticated 2013 tyres. The tyres that will be used for the Hungarian Grand Prix onwards will combine the characteristics of the 2012 tyres with the performance of the 2013 compounds. Essentially, the new tyres will have a structure, construction and belt identical to that of 2012, which ensured maximum performance and safety. The compounds will be the same as those used throughout 2013, which guaranteed faster lap times and a wider working range. This new specification, as agreed with the FIA, will be tested on-track together with the teams and their 2013 cars at Silverstone from 17-19 July in a session with the race drivers during the young driver test. These tests will contribute to the definitive development of the new range of tyres, giving teams the opportunity to carry out the appropriate set-up work on their cars.
Exactly what was expected. Hogwash. The explanation by no means fits with the measures actually taken. The teams have used low pressure, more camber, swapped tyre in 2012 already and nothing happened. It is the bloody Pirelli design that is wrong and they do not want to admit it. What they effectively do is using the old contruction with the new compounds and call it new tyres. The application of the most simple piece of logic immediately tells you that nothing mentioned in the Pirelli report did change between the 2012 and the 2013 running of the British GP except for the Pirelli tyre. Just how dumb does Pirelli think we are? I really hope that someone with a bit of engineering expertise from one of the competing firms makes a public statement in front of the WMSC or the international tribunal, but I'm afraid the FiA will let them get away with fudging it as usual. Time to get rid of them.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

f300v10
f300v10
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Update, Hungary tires will basically be 2012 construction with 2013 compounds:

"From the Hungarian Grand Prix onwards, the introduction of a new range of tyres. The new tyres will have a symmetrical structure, designed to guarantee maximum safety even without access to tyre data – which however is essential for the optimal function of the more sophisticated 2013 tyres. The tyres that will be used for the Hungarian Grand Prix onwards will combine the characteristics of the 2012 tyres with the performance of the 2013 compounds. Essentially, the new tyres will have a structure, construction and belt identical to that of 2012, which ensured maximum performance and safety. The compounds will be the same as those used throughout 2013, which guaranteed faster lap times and a wider working range. This new specification, as agreed with the FIA, will be tested on-track together with the teams and their 2013 cars at Silverstone from 17-19 July in a session with the race drivers during the young driver test. These tests will contribute to the definitive development of the new range of tyres, giving teams the opportunity to carry out the appropriate set-up work on their cars."

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Brilliant, Mercedes mounting the tires the wrong way? :lol:

1) Rear tyres that were mounted the wrong way round: in other words, the right hand tyre being placed where the left hand one should be and vice versa, on the cars that suffered failures. The tyres supplied this year have an asymmetric structure, which means that they are not designed to be interchangeable. The sidewalls are designed in such a way to deal with specific loads on the internal and external sides of the tyre. So swapping the tyres round has an effect on how they work in certain conditions. In particular, the external part is designed to cope with the very high loads that are generated while cornering at a circuit as demanding as Silverstone, with its rapid left-hand bends and some kerbs that are particularly aggressive.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

langwadt
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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xpensive wrote:Brilliant, Mercedes mounting the tires the wrong way? :lol:
it's not like they are clueless and just bolt them on at random, they swap left-right on purpose because they have found
that it give them an advantage

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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xpensive wrote: ...
Or perhaps not, the peak braking power is likely to be at high speed, while the propulsion force peaks at low speed?

I need to elaborate a little on this for a while.
Let's see now, 2000 kW braking power at what, 80 m/s (288 km/h) spread over four wheels is 6250 N.

800 Hp, 588 kW, at 30 m/s ( 108 km/h) over two wheels is 9800 N.

Input please gentlemen?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

rjsa
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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langwadt wrote:
xpensive wrote:Brilliant, Mercedes mounting the tires the wrong way? :lol:
it's not like they are clueless and just bolt them on at random, they swap left-right on purpose because they have found
that it give them an advantage
Or not. Massa's notoriety as a poor wet weather driver comes from Ferrari assembling his wets backwards.

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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WhiteBlue wrote: Exactly what was expected. Hogwash. The explanation by no means fits with the measures actually taken. The teams have used low pressure, more camber, swapped tyre in 2012 already and nothing happened. It is the bloody Pirelli design that is wrong and they do not want to admit it. What they effectively do is using the old contruction with the new compounds and call it new tyres. The application of the most simple piece of logic immediately tells you that nothing mentioned in the Pirelli report did change between the 2012 and the 2013 running of the British GP except for the Pirelli tyre. Just how dumb does Pirelli think we are? I really hope that someone with a bit of engineering expertise from one of the competing firms makes a public statement in front of the WMSC or the international tribunal, but I'm afraid the FiA will let them get away with fudging it as usual. Time to get rid of them.
I agree, what I just read was a series of excuses for bad design. They have designed tyres which, stupidly, have their peak performance operating-point OUTSIDE of its safe operating region. This is the key point here. Name one other system on the car where this is an acceptable characteristic...

But this is in line with what we have seen all yea with the degredation. If you put the tyres in a set of operating conditions for maximum grip, they will destroy themselves after a couple of laps.

The tyres are crap, but the only thing worse is the büllshit they feed to us. Right from the start of the year.
There aren't more marbles, its the HD tv cameras picking it up better,
that wasn't a tyre failure it was debris,
now the track is wrong
the teams are setting the camber angles wrong
the teams are running the pressure too low

etc
Not the engineer at Force India

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diffuser
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f300v10 wrote:Update, Hungary tires will basically be 2012 construction with 2013 compounds:

"From the Hungarian Grand Prix onwards, the introduction of a new range of tyres. The new tyres will have a symmetrical structure, designed to guarantee maximum safety even without access to tyre data – which however is essential for the optimal function of the more sophisticated 2013 tyres. The tyres that will be used for the Hungarian Grand Prix onwards will combine the characteristics of the 2012 tyres with the performance of the 2013 compounds. Essentially, the new tyres will have a structure, construction and belt identical to that of 2012, which ensured maximum performance and safety. The compounds will be the same as those used throughout 2013, which guaranteed faster lap times and a wider working range. This new specification, as agreed with the FIA, will be tested on-track together with the teams and their 2013 cars at Silverstone from 17-19 July in a session with the race drivers during the young driver test. These tests will contribute to the definitive development of the new range of tyres, giving teams the opportunity to carry out the appropriate set-up work on their cars."

interesting, Pirelli is blaming the failures on the perversion of the tyre setup, Flipping right with left rear tires, higher then recommended camber and too low air pressure.

I wonder which teams were doing that? I know that Merc was flipping the tires ...I don't know if they did that at Silverstone.

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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xpensive wrote:
xpensive wrote: ...
Or perhaps not, the peak braking power is likely to be at high speed, while the propulsion force peaks at low speed?

I need to elaborate a little on this for a while.
Let's see now, 2000 kW braking power at what, 80 m/s (288 km/h) spread over four wheels is 6250 N.

800 Hp, 588 kW, at 30 m/s ( 108 km/h) over two wheels is 9800 N.

Input please gentlemen?
Are you trying to estimate which tyres are the most severly used?

I'd be more inclined to use acceleration of power, particularly for driving acceleration because otherwise you can't be sure that at 30m/s the 800Hp is capable os being transmitted to the ground without wheelspin.

For braking I'd guess 5G with 1G coming from aero and 4G coming from the brakes. That gives
4G x 9.81m/ss x 620kg x 65% fr brake bias = 15.8kN for the total front axle
4G x 9.81m/ss x 620kg x 35% rr brake bias = 8.5kN for the total rear axle

I haven't really paid much attention to how much longitudinal acceleration the use in acceleration but the calcs will be the same...
Not the engineer at Force India

rjsa
rjsa
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Tim.Wright wrote: I agree, what I just read was a series of excuses for bad design. They have designed tyres which, stupidly, have their peak performance operating-point OUTSIDE of its safe operating region. This is the key point here. Name one other system on the car where this is an acceptable characteristic...
etc

That's easy enough. Just ditch the RPM limit and lets see if the peak performace of the engines is within the current and safe operation parameters.

The only diference is that the teams comply to the RPM limit, they have to.

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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I don't agree with that at all. The engine power drops off after you reach its peak. Revving it more is only stressing the engine and not providing any more power.
Not the engineer at Force India

lebesset
lebesset
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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xpensive wrote:Brilliant, Mercedes mounting the tires the wrong way? :lol:

1) Rear tyres that were mounted the wrong way round: in other words, the right hand tyre being placed where the left hand one should be and vice versa, on the cars that suffered failures. The tyres supplied this year have an asymmetric structure, which means that they are not designed to be interchangeable. The sidewalls are designed in such a way to deal with specific loads on the internal and external sides of the tyre. So swapping the tyres round has an effect on how they work in certain conditions. In particular, the external part is designed to cope with the very high loads that are generated while cornering at a circuit as demanding as Silverstone, with its rapid left-hand bends and some kerbs that are particularly aggressive.
every tyre that failed was running the wrong way round ; it wasn't just mercedes taking a chance
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rjsa
rjsa
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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REMOVED
Last edited by rjsa on 02 Jul 2013, 22:21, edited 1 time in total.

rjsa
rjsa
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Tim.Wright wrote:I don't agree with that at all. The engine power drops off after you reach its peak. Revving it more is only stressing the engine and not providing any more power.
It does because the engine is setup like that. Release the RPM limit and let's see how much would they rev.

langwadt
langwadt
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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rjsa wrote:
langwadt wrote:
xpensive wrote:Brilliant, Mercedes mounting the tires the wrong way? :lol:
it's not like they are clueless and just bolt them on at random, they swap left-right on purpose because they have found
that it give them an advantage
Or not. Massa's notoriety as a poor wet weather driver comes from Ferrari assembling his wets backwards.
accidents happen, it has also happened teams that have mixed tires from their two cars and been penalized for it

but in this case it was on purpose and several teams did it and have before