Pirelli 2013

[rjsa]

It seems it was not only Mercedes, so yes, it was done on purpose.

[xpensive]

...
For braking I'd guess 5G with 1G coming from aero and 4G coming from the brakes. That gives
4G x 9.81m/ss x 620kg x 65% fr brake bias = 15.8kN for the total front axle
4G x 9.81m/ss x 620kg x 35% rr brake bias = 8.5kN for the total rear axle

I haven't really paid much attention to how much longitudinal acceleration the use in acceleration but the calcs will be the same...

Seems we are in the same county, some 8 -9 kN for each tire, braking or accelerating, most interesting indeed.

Like a ton of load on each contact patch, I wonder if our friend from Ohio can enlighten us some more on the subject?

[Holm86]

-At Germany they will run 2013 rear tyres with the 2012 kevlar belt. The front tyres remain the same.
-At Hungary, they will effectively run 2012 tyres, front and rear. So from that race on, nothing from the 2013 tyres will be taken over.

That means, from Hungary on:
-softer sidewall
-harder compounds
-kevlar belt instead of steel belt

It could very well be that plans are still going to change. Pirelli will test several solutions at the YDT. So we'll have to wait and see, but for now this how it will go.

You're wrong. The tires used from the Hungarian GP forward will use 2012 construction and 2013 compounds.

"1) The use of the evolution of the current tyre that was tested in Canada (and proved to be completely reliable) for the German Grand Prix this weekend. This represents the best match for the technical characteristics of the Nurburgring circuit. In particular, the rear tyres that will be used at the German Grand Prix, which takes place on July 7, have a Kevlar construction that replaces the current steel structure and the re-introduction of the 2012 belt, to ensure maximum stability and roadholding. Given that these tyres are asymmetric as well, it will be strictly forbidden to swap them round. The front tyres, by contrast, will remain unaltered.

2) From the Hungarian Grand Prix onwards, the introduction of a new range of tyres. The new tyres will have a symmetrical structure, designed to guarantee maximum safety even without access to tyre data – which however is essential for the optimal function of the more sophisticated 2013 tyres. The tyres that will be used for the Hungarian Grand Prix onwards will combine the characteristics of the 2012 tyres with the performance of the 2013 compounds. Essentially, the new tyres will have a structure, construction and belt identical to that of 2012, which ensured maximum performance and safety. The compounds will be the same as those used throughout 2013, which guaranteed faster lap times and a wider working range. This new specification, as agreed with the FIA, will be tested on-track together with the teams and their 2013 cars at Silverstone from 17-19 July in a session with the race drivers during the young driver test. These tests will contribute to the definitive development of the new range of tyres, giving teams the opportunity to carry out the appropriate set-up work on their cars."

http://gptoday.com/full_story/view/4568 ... Statement/

[FoxHound]

So the general consensus is Pirelli are inept.
People wanting stone-like tyres that last entire races, and lead to processions.

Formula 1 has its problems, and you cannot lay the responsibility of "spicing up" the show on a tyre manufacturer, this is what happens. Pirelli are stuck between a toothless governing body, who had the oppurtunity to introduce the safer tyre, but left it to the teams to decide.
That's like asking a bunch of kids which their favourite candy is, there will not be unanimity.
And they must also cater to powerful teams.
Each with their own requirements.

The next time the FIA decide to spice things up, relying on a tyre manufacturer to do so should not be considered.
I have some sympathy for Pirelli, they don't help themselves with their PR, but overall the issues is outside of their control.

[JimClarkFan]

I see Pirelli have now blamed the F1 teams for the blowouts... If they had of highlighted the furor caused by the other teams over the tyre test I would have got on board. But instead they are blaming camber, pressure and the way teams are putting the tyres on. It is getting a bit ridiculous now.

[Cam]

This is rank incompetence.

Get ready for another Hembrey excuse.

So its the teams fault! Pirelli are so predictable. Pity their tyres are not.

Following investigations into the causes of the British Grand Prix blow-outs, Pirelli believes a combination of teams swapping left and right hand side tyres, plus running pressures too low with aggressive camber choices, caused the incidents.

[f1316]

You could therefore argue that simply mandating that the tyres are put on the right way round and pressures up to Pirelli guidelines would fix the problem, no? If they''re that confident...

Anyway, we're really off topic now for the car thread

[Jersey Tom]

Surely Pirelli can't be so naive to think that if their tires perform best at 'X' camber or air pressure or whatever, that the teams won't move in that direction. And in the grand scheme of things, camber in F1 is not that high. Not to mention teams are constantly going to be developing their cars to produce more aero loading etc. anyway.

Gotta build tires with enough extra margin such that they can take the use and abuse and be well enough ahead of any week-to-week changes in ambient conditions, car setup, etc.

When was the last time a tire supplier in F1 had this many problems on multiple race weekends in a season?

[nacho]

It was discussed in Finnish Tv by Mika Salo some GPs ago that teams are this year switching tires from left to right after qualifying because the tracks are always heavier to either side lf car. If I remember correctly he said this wasn't possible before but this years tires enabled it because of the construction being different to last year. Some team started doing this and others followed after.

[WhiteBlue]

It has been done for much longer than one year, as I have already pointed out. It is not the reason for the tyre failures and if it were Pirelli had the responsibility to stop it at the time when it was widely published. A ten year old kid will be able to do the logic thinking required to find the the faults in Pirelli's argument. They can as well publish the sentence:

"Our 2012 mechanical tyre construction has been modified in terms of side wall flexibility, material selection and operating temperature range for 2013. We experienced failures of that design under different load cases and in different failure modes depending of the bonding method we used. With weak bonding we saw the tread de laminating from the construction. With stronger bonding that failure mode was replaced by the construction failing under the mechanical and thermal stresses. We have decided that we need to go back to the stronger 2012 construction design which provided adequate safety levels against mechanical failures."

That would have been a true statement and not the bullshit that we have been served. But as I already have said. Only the dumb will believe what Pirelli is communicating. IMO they are dishonest, not trustworthy and none of my vehicles will ever have a set of their tyres again.

When was the last time a tire supplier in F1 had this many problems on multiple race weekends in a season?

Michelin in 2005. And by the chances of a miracle they had the exact same problem. Their side walls were more flexible, had a steel band and failed under high speed induced loads.

[rjsa]

It now occurred to me that Pirelli is claiming the same Goodyear did with their Nascar blow fest.

Being a huge difference the fact that Goodyear got to Indy with a clear rap sheet, while Pirelli is in the mud up to their eyeballs.

[WhiteBlue]

The following quotes from a Sommerfield article on Pitpass directly support the theory that all 2013 tyre failures are somehow connected to the connstruction design and that the new bonding process was responsible to turn relatively less dangerous de laminations into blow outs.

The root cause of a delamination is damage or cuts to the tyre (usually from
debris) causing a loss of pressure, which in turn increases the heat, peeling away
the tread platform from the rest of the tyre. For Silverstone Pirelli had made
changes to the way the tread was bonded to its tyres. ...
From a personal perspective I see no problem with the way tyres had previously
delaminated in Malaysia, Bahrain and Spain as it allowed (in most cases) for the
driver to either park their car in a place of safety or return to the pits for another
set. The problem with adjusting the way in which the tread is bonded to the
carcass is that it opens the door for the damage to rupture the tyre at its next
weakest point: the sidewall's shoulder joint, which is what I believe we saw at
Silverstone. With the tread platform now more firmly affixed to the carcass when
a tyre deflated (due to a cut) the tread stayed attached, raising the temperature
internally, causing the tyre to let go at the tyre’s shoulder....
On safety grounds the tyres will now revert to the Kevlar banding prototype tyres
issued to the teams during the Montreal and Silverstone weekends. ...
A change in the tyres construction mid-way through the season like we are going
to see will result in the Championship almost being reset. Depending on how wide
sweeping the changes are they could have implications not only in terms of
mechanical grip and aerodynamics but also the degradation level of the tyres
throughout races. This year’s construction was aimed at increasing the thermal
degradation of the tyres whereas 2012's construction was more wear aligned.
It's currently being touted as just a change to the 2012 construction for Hungary
onward but even with the teams having experience with those tyres their current
cars won't be catered towards them. Wholesale changes will have a massive
impact on the direction in which the teams have already taken and continued
development of their cars for 2013, with those reacting the quickest standing the
best chance of winning either Championship. But at what cost?
2014, as we know, brings with it a new set of regulations that demand the teams
focus ahead of their usual design curve. A continued push for development this
late on in the season is not only going to be expensive but may be at the sacrifice
of 2014.

Sommerfield also looks at the implications for this years championships and the development resources. The conclusion can only be that the teams with the deepest pockets and the greatest resources will fight it out at the sharp end of the grid. In my view those will be Red Bull, Ferrari and Mercedes. Lotus and McLaren are already out of both championships as a result of their weak financial situation or from a 2013 early performance point of view.

IMO the team that will get screwed most by the Pirelli saga will be Ferrari. They will be short on resources due to having the turbo engine on their project list. Red Bull will profit most from it IMO. They have no need to shift resources to engine design as Merc and Ferrari have plus they are leading the championships anyway.

[void]

[Sombrero]

But there's a huge difference between Michelin in 2005 and Pirelli at Silverstone in 2013 : Michelin didn't take the risk to hurt somebody. At Silverstone Pirelli didn't do anything and it was very very close for Fernando and Kimi...

From Pirelli side, like always bullshit !

[beelsebob]

I see Pirelli have now blamed the F1 teams for the blowouts... If they had of highlighted the furor caused by the other teams over the tyre test I would have got on board. But instead they are blaming camber, pressure and the way teams are putting the tyres on. It is getting a bit ridiculous now.

It may yet bite them in the arse. The teams were swapping them around exactly to get more life out of them. By disallowing that, they may inadvertently (or even advertantly) be digging their own grave re early tyre failures.