Pirelli 2013

[CBeck113]

The thing that really bothers me is the fact that Pirelli sitll hasn't admitted that they have a safety problem .

If you know that your customers are using your product outside its specified range, then you must correct the customer. In this case, if the teams continue to do so, then they should have gone to the FiA and logged a complaint, asking for rule changes to insure that the teams comply. AND they would have to use that evil term "SAFETY" to make the FiA react - which is why this hasn't happened.

Reckless, and I think EVERYONE f*cked this one up, not just Pirelli.

[Matt Somers]

Update, Hungary tires will basically be 2012 construction with 2013 compounds:

"From the Hungarian Grand Prix onwards, the introduction of a new range of tyres. The new tyres will have a symmetrical structure, designed to guarantee maximum safety even without access to tyre data – which however is essential for the optimal function of the more sophisticated 2013 tyres. The tyres that will be used for the Hungarian Grand Prix onwards will combine the characteristics of the 2012 tyres with the performance of the 2013 compounds. Essentially, the new tyres will have a structure, construction and belt identical to that of 2012, which ensured maximum performance and safety. The compounds will be the same as those used throughout 2013, which guaranteed faster lap times and a wider working range. This new specification, as agreed with the FIA, will be tested on-track together with the teams and their 2013 cars at Silverstone from 17-19 July in a session with the race drivers during the young driver test. These tests will contribute to the definitive development of the new range of tyres, giving teams the opportunity to carry out the appropriate set-up work on their cars."

interesting, Pirelli is blaming the failures on the perversion of the tyre setup, Flipping right with left rear tires, higher then recommended camber and too low air pressure.

I wonder which teams were doing that? I know that Merc was flipping the tires ...I don't know if they did that at Silverstone.

The tyre that blew on Hamilton was not flipped

[Huntresa]

Update, Hungary tires will basically be 2012 construction with 2013 compounds:

"From the Hungarian Grand Prix onwards, the introduction of a new range of tyres. The new tyres will have a symmetrical structure, designed to guarantee maximum safety even without access to tyre data – which however is essential for the optimal function of the more sophisticated 2013 tyres. The tyres that will be used for the Hungarian Grand Prix onwards will combine the characteristics of the 2012 tyres with the performance of the 2013 compounds. Essentially, the new tyres will have a structure, construction and belt identical to that of 2012, which ensured maximum performance and safety. The compounds will be the same as those used throughout 2013, which guaranteed faster lap times and a wider working range. This new specification, as agreed with the FIA, will be tested on-track together with the teams and their 2013 cars at Silverstone from 17-19 July in a session with the race drivers during the young driver test. These tests will contribute to the definitive development of the new range of tyres, giving teams the opportunity to carry out the appropriate set-up work on their cars."

interesting, Pirelli is blaming the failures on the perversion of the tyre setup, Flipping right with left rear tires, higher then recommended camber and too low air pressure.

I wonder which teams were doing that? I know that Merc was flipping the tires ...I don't know if they did that at Silverstone.

The tyre that blew on Hamilton was not flipped

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y62/So ... 44525e.jpg

Thats their own markings, you need to check the barcode label for the correct L or R.

[FoxHound]

Not only that, but the markings point in the same direction....

Only one is at the top of the revolving cycle and theother at the bottom.

[lebesset]

The thing that really bothers me is the fact that Pirelli sitll hasn't admitted that they have a safety problem .

If you know that your customers are using your product outside its specified range, then you must correct the customer. In this case, if the teams continue to do so, then they should have gone to the FiA and logged a complaint, asking for rule changes to insure that the teams comply. AND they would have to use that evil term "SAFETY" to make the FiA react - which is why this hasn't happened.

Reckless, and I think EVERYONE f*cked this one up, not just Pirelli.

this is F1 ...SNAFU

[MOWOG]

this is F1 ...SNAFU

Good point. No one is blameless in this fiasco. Formula One may be the most dysfunctional operation ever in the history of the earth. Fighting within the teams, fighting between the teams, fighting between Bernie and Jean, fighting between FOCA and FOMA. About the only ones who AREN'T fighting are the drivers themselves out on track where the competition ought to be.

The fact that we fans continue to follow the sport with rabid fascination probably should tells us something about ourselves, eh?

[ecapox]

The thing that really bothers me is the fact that Pirelli sitll hasn't admitted that they have a safety problem .

If you know that your customers are using your product outside its specified range, then you must correct the customer. In this case, if the teams continue to do so, then they should have gone to the FiA and logged a complaint, asking for rule changes to insure that the teams comply. AND they would have to use that evil term "SAFETY" to make the FiA react - which is why this hasn't happened.

Reckless, and I think EVERYONE f*cked this one up, not just Pirelli.

I would argue that it is not Pirelli's job to go to the FIA and say "Hey man, they are using my tires incorrectly." Firstly because you need to investigate how every team is "using" the tires and secondly because even if they did know how teams were using them incorrectly, they couldnt pinpoint one team.

"Redbull is running left hand tires on the right hand side, they are running crazy camber angles, and they are running them at a dangerously low pressure Mr FIA. A tire may spontaneously explode....maybe."

That WOULD NEVER go over well. Redbull would cry foul about Pirelli leaking their secrets.

IF teams are using the tires in a incorrect (read, dangerous) manner, then it is their fault and ONLY their fault. Pirelli can provide optimum pressure levels as well as camber degrees, as well as marking the damn things LEFT and RIGHT. IF the teams disregard all these factors, and tires start a poppin, it's their own fault, and usually to their own detriment...unless someone gets hit in the head with debris...but i'd still argue that it is the teams fault for running their car in a unsafe manner.

[strad]

The way I read the quote the tires may be uni-directional, but Pirelli did not tell the team that..
""Mounting the tyres the wrong way round is a practice that was nonetheless underestimated by everybody: above all Pirelli, which did not forbid this.""

[.poz]

Maybe ....but the 2012 tires are a different shape, react differently under braking/acceleration(walls have different characteristics) and are lighter...so it will not effect the car aerodynamics equally and they will effect the cars balance.

I remember someone in Ferrari said that 2013 tires allow the driver to finish the brake inside the turn while with 2012 tires that should be avoid to preserve them

[WhiteBlue]

The way I read the quote the tires may be uni-directional, but Pirelli did not tell the team that..
""Mounting the tyres the wrong way round is a practice that was nonetheless underestimated by everybody: above all Pirelli, which did not forbid this.""

They obviously had no idea that there would be a problem with the safety margin in the design or they would have stopped them. My conclusion from that point is that they experienced stress levels that were not anticipated in the design calculations. And the most likely reason for getting excessive stress is is the resonance or standing waves that were reportedly induced by hitting curbs at high speed. If those tyre wobbles took the safety margins away very small things like the tyre swapping could bring you over the edge.

[CBeck113]

I would argue that it is not Pirelli's job to go to the FIA and say "Hey man, they are using my tires incorrectly." Firstly because you need to investigate how every team is "using" the tires and secondly because even if they did know how teams were using them incorrectly, they couldnt pinpoint one team.

"Redbull is running left hand tires on the right hand side, they are running crazy camber angles, and they are running them at a dangerously low pressure Mr FIA. A tire may spontaneously explode....maybe."

That WOULD NEVER go over well. Redbull would cry foul about Pirelli leaking their secrets.

IF teams are using the tires in a incorrect (read, dangerous) manner, then it is their fault and ONLY their fault. Pirelli can provide optimum pressure levels as well as camber degrees, as well as marking the damn things LEFT and RIGHT. IF the teams disregard all these factors, and tires start a poppin, it's their own fault, and usually to their own detriment...unless someone gets hit in the head with debris...but i'd still argue that it is the teams fault for running their car in a unsafe manner.

I agree with you in the juristical view. The teams can do what they want with the products they purchase. But, there is also the other side of the story. I still do not believe that Pirelli intended to take any risk during the development of these tires. But I do think that the characteristics ordered by their customer (FiA) combined with the usage by the individual teams, trying to find an advantage, lead to the issue(s). And as soon as Pirelli saw this, it is their moral responsibility (yeah, I went there!) to take actions to insure the safety of their product. Nobody else had this overview, so nobody else could do so. But they instead tried to cover their a$$es by 1) not calling it a safety issue and 2) not bringing all the information to the right people to force rules for usage of their product. Every team has a Pirelli rep in the pits - make it their job to check the air pressure and usage during pit stops, and have them inform Charlie W. if for instance a team swaps left & right. That car could then be sent to the pits, or punished after the race for risking the lives of the other drivers.
OK, I admit it - I hate it when people don't just take responsibility for a problem [staring at the whole F1 circus at this point].

[xpensive]

Fascinating mistakes really, I have been convinced that all Formula1 tires were one-directional since the 80s,
you can often see this scribbled on the sidewalls, like ; "LFW" with an arrow to help your instant thinking?

[rssh]

Can the uni-directional tyres be the problems that causing these problems in the races because in 2011 and 2012 after qualy teams used to change the left tyre to the right side & vice-versa in races ? Could the max loaded tyres (max wear ones) explode when put through racing .

Finally something I kind of predicted right somewhat.

With the new tyres from Hungry will they change the med-hard tyre allocation for Hungry too ? Also even if they construct the new tyres the 2012 way and provide 2013 wear rate ,wouldn't it cost tyre temperature fluctuation ? Inspite of testing them in YDT wouldn't team like Williams, Macca and Sauber benefit out the most due to change in stiffness of sidewall to 2012 levels leading to more consistent downforce levels to 2013 relatively?

I think Force India and Lotus will protest if others find better performance with newer tyres .

[tim|away]

Long term reader, first time poster here so excuse my newbie mistakes.

As we've all witnessed during the race at silverstone several tyres failed, so let's quickly review the reasons that pirelli provided:
1) teams operating the tyres outside of pirelli's recommendations (low pressure, camber angle, mounting wrong way around)
2) "aggressive" kerbing

Both of those options are definitely feasable and even convincing from an analytical point of view, but it is the tyre manufacturer that needs to raise the awareness of potential risks in the first place. Historically, it is well known that formula 1 teams will always try to make use of any advantage they can find as long as it is within the regulations. Had Paul Hembrey communicated to Charlie Whiting that huge chunks of rubber may hit a driver's head as a result of teams operating the tyres outside of pirelli's recommendations, I'm sure Charlie Whiting would have found a way to ensure that teams follow these recommendations. It's feasable to assume Charlie Whiting would have established rules to disqualify anyone who chooses to ignore pirelli's specificitions.

For pirelli to suggest "aggressive kerbing" as a potential cause is indirectly implying one of three things:
a) Charlie Whiting was aware of the entire risks and knowlingly chose to ingore them.
b) Charlie Whiting did not inspect the track sufficiently despite being aware of the potential risks of "aggressive kerbs".
c) Pirelli never communicated the potential risks sufficiently.

The real issue is that no one seemed to have any awareness at all. In fact, even pirelli appeared to be completely surprised by the tyre failures at silverstone. Worse still, pirelli appears to have been aware that teams were using their tyres outside of their recommendations even before silverstone and yet, they didn't do anything about it. As a tyre manufacturer, it is their responsibility to evaluate the risks of operating the tyres outside of the specifications. Failing that, at the very minimum it is their responsibility to communicate very clearly that they cannot guarantee any safety at all.

The implications of pirelli's public statement are bothering me, as they indirectly imply that both the teams and the FIA were aware of the risks and knowingly chose to ignore them. One doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to come up with possible scenarios of huge rubber chunks hitting a driver's head at high speed. Personally, I strongly believe pirelli has been been negligent in its communication and evaluation of the risks and are still refusing to take any responsibility in this matter.

[Ganxxta]

I think we can all agree that Pirellis excuses are completely BS.

But what I find most irritating is that they say camber was one major issue...
The rear tires failed, right?



So how is this a "out of spec" camber angle?
Rears have always less camber than fronts, so why aren't the fronts then more affected if camber is such an issue?