Pirelli 2013

[rjsa]

Picture from Germany - the tires don't have the marking that tells which side they go on.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BOUvwsICQAAxoPO.jpg:large

err... So whats the big red "R" with an arrow?

That's painted there by the team, as you must know, running a F1 team is a logistics nightmare and those tyres as painted just as the heating blankets are. Just so that each one grabs their stuff right once the pit call rings.

If you pay attention to the two pictures posted, in one there is no side marking in the FIA barcode sticker. On the other there is.

[rjsa]

http://www.michelinman.com/tires-101/ti ... ation.page

It's a common practise to swap tyres on road cars!

I might have not been clear: they promote it while they prohibit it in F1. Everyone who drive pirelli road tyres and swapped tyres will now give the whole thing a second thought.

Don't be blunt. Tyre swap is promoted in specific ways for each kind of tyre.

Your off the mill P4 can be swapped at will. More specialized, high performance tyre can't. Guess I'll have to repeat myself.

Some are directional:


Some are asmetrical, having 'outside' and inside:


Some are one design fits all:

[turbof1]

I get your point, but I do not believe people will rationalise it that well. Especially not people who bought the tyres because of the exposure Pirelli gets in F1. Of course the road tyres are safe and are completely different types then the ones in F1, but people link it back to to the ones in F1 anyhow. That counts both for tyres that can be swapped, as well as all tyres in general because of the delamination events.

[rjsa]

I get your point, but I do not believe people will rationalise it that well. Especially not people who bought the tyres because of the exposure Pirelli gets in F1. Of course the road tyres are safe and are completely different types then the ones in F1, but people link it back to to the ones in F1 anyhow. That counts both for tyres that can be swapped, as well as all tyres in general because of the delamination events.

Well, I guess people who bought Pirelli because of F1 exposure where already regreting their choices when the tyres started shreding themselves, no need to factor tyre swap instructions in.

[Cam]

http://www.michelinman.com/tires-101/ti ... ation.page

It's a common practise to swap tyres on road cars!

I might have not been clear: they promote it while they prohibit it in F1. Everyone who drive pirelli road tyres and swapped tyres will now give the whole thing a second thought.

Don't be blunt. Tyre swap is promoted in specific ways for each kind of tyre.

Your off the mill P4 can be swapped at will. More specialized, high performance tyre can't. Guess I'll have to repeat myself.

Some are directional:
http://toyotires.com/sites/default/file ... s_PXST.png

Some are asmetrical, having 'outside' and inside:
http://www.ctyres.co.uk/tyre_info/asymetric_tyres.jpg

Some are one design fits all:
http://www.uniroyaltires.com/images/tir ... ouring.jpg

It does not have to be about specific tyres. PIrelli (and every other tyre manufacturer) promote tyre swapping as part of 'best practice' so the concept s not new. The average Joe will know this. And for all those saying "but it's not a road tyre".... Pirelli are drawing the link between F1 and road relevance:

Pirelli Home Page
as long as they draw the link - we are entitled to question it. Personally, I wouldn't take the current F1 performance to my car....... would you?

[Cam]

And according to Scarbs it has been done for years with the F1 Pirellis as well. So it becomes totarily pointless to even talk about this.

Each team has a dedicated Pirelli tyre engineer and tyre fitter who work closely with them all through the year.

Pirelli clearly have knowledge of what the teams are doing regarding tyre swapping, tyre pressures etc - because they have a 'dedicated engineer' in each team. So if it's the teams fault, what on earth are those engineers doing then? Either they're not reporting the tyre usage back to Pirelli - which is a major failure in communication, or more likely, Pirelli know exactly what's going on. In which case, why oh why do we continually get this PR drivel from Pirelli??
Ferrari and McLaren and Pirelli "As has always been the case, each team will have its own dedicated Pirelli engineer."

[WhiteBlue]

Picture from Germany - the tires don't have the marking that tells which side they go on.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BOUvwsICQAAxoPO.jpg:large
But not all of them
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BOUz5nUCMAEJMe0.jpg:large

As I'm completely lost here WB, can you please xplain why professional teams don't get the position of their tire's right?

The issue is not the teams getting it wrong IMO. They probably know very well what they do. My impression is that Pirelli did not consider the safety sufficiently when they issued operational parameters and a procedure to make sure they are adhered to.

[Cam]

Regarding the shiulder of the tyres - whereby that has been flagged as an area of concern with the tyre explosions:

Milan, January 23, 2013. Pirelli begins the 2013 Formula One season with a completely revolutionised P Zero range for dry weather and Cinturato range for wet weather. These new tyres have been developed according to the wishes of the teams and the latest rules from world motorsport’s governing body, the FIA. The most recent evolutions benefit the compounds, which have become softer, the structures, which are more flexible and the shoulders, which have been reinforced.

Pirelli
Looks like their reinforcement isn't up to standards.

Also looks like they need to revisit their laboratory procedures and throw their simulation software out.......

Computer Simulations And Thousands Of Kilometres Of Testing

The development of the 2013 P Zero and Cinturato ranges included thousands of computer simulations carried out by Pirelli’s engineers throughout the 2012 season, using sophisticated predictive software. These simulations, which were backed up by laboratory tests on the compounds, have been integrated with data collected during grands prix and the seven thousand so kilometres covered during five private tests with the Renault R30. Pirelli’s test car was driven by Jaime Alguersuari and Lucas Di Grassi at Jerez, Spa, Barcelona (for two sessions) and Paul Ricard (for a wet weather test).

Edit: interestingly Pirelli did not disclose the private Ferrari test in 2012 - in the above press release. You'd think that data was also used in the 'thousands of kilometres of testing'?

[Cam]

Picture from Germany - the tires don't have the marking that tells which side they go on.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BOUvwsICQAAxoPO.jpg:large
But not all of them
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BOUz5nUCMAEJMe0.jpg:large

As I'm completely lost here WB, can you please xplain why professional teams don't get the position of their tire's right?

The issue is not the teams getting it wrong IMO. They probably know very well what they do. My impression is that Pirelli did not consider the safety sufficiently when they issued operational parameters and a procedure to make sure they are adhered to.

Which is surprising because on one hand they state:

THE 2013 TYRES DO NOT COMPROMISE SAFETY IF USED IN THE CORRECT WAY

Yet in the text below that on the same press release:

Mounting the tyres the wrong way round is a practice that was nonetheless underestimated by everybody: above all Pirelli, which did not forbid this.

Pirelli, explanation on Silverstone’ facts and next races
Combine that with:

TO DEVELOP AND MANAGE SOPHISTICATED TYRES SUCH AS THOSE USED IN 2013, IT IS ESSENTIAL TO HAVE ACCESS TO REAL TIME TYRE OPERATING DATA. CHANGE IN THE RULES HAS BEEN REQUESTED

It would seem difficult for Pirelli to claim their tyres are safe if used the correct way when they admit they don't have access to real time data to prove they are safe..... and it also seems their 'estimations' are clearly way off. Supplying tyres based on "underestimated by everybody: above all Pirelli" would seem a fairly grave safety issue. They are blind, know they are blind, yet allow 300km/h cars to use them.

[WhiteBlue]

AMuS gives us some quotes: source

Die Kräfte in den Kurven sind im Vergleich zum Vorjahr um 15 Prozent gestiegen. Damit ist Silverstone vor Spa und Suzuka die härteste Strecke für die Reifen."
Translation:
Cornering forces were increased by 15% compared to the previous year. This makes Silvertone the toughest track for the tyres ahead of Spa and Suzuka.

"Es war ein Zusammenspiel vieler Faktoren. Schnelle Kurven, Reifen in falscher Laufrichtung, zu viel Radsturz, zu wenig Luftdruck. Und nicht zu vergessen die stehenden Wellen in den Seitenwänden. Ich habe Fotos gesehen, da sieht man, wie die Flanken in den schnellen Kurven Wellen schlagen. Das bedeutet eine extreme Belastung für die Karkasse. Die Innenseite ist davon mehr betroffen, weil sie unter Zug steht. Michelin hatte 2005 in Indianapolis ein ähnliches Problem."
Translation:
Many factors came together. Fast corners, swapped tyres, too much camber, not enough tyre pressure. And not to be forgotten the standing waves in the side walls. I have seen photographs that show the side walls having waves in the fast corners. This generates extreme loads for the carcass. The inner side is more affected by that because it is under tension. Michelin had a similar problem in Indianapolis 2005.

I thought the waves would be a problem, but they were never even mentioned by Pirelli. Good that some people are not afraid to tell us the truth and we do not have to rely on the Pirelli half truth and PR whitewash.
When you encounter standing waves in the side walls they will take out safety reserves quicker than anything else that was mentioned by Pirelli. The Indy disaster is testimony for that. It shows once again that Pirelli are not honestly reporting about the tyre safety situation. That is very concerning. You have to trust your tyre supplier when you strap on a 700+ hp F1 rocket. The comments by the GPDA also show that they are not confident about Pirelli's assurances. They want to stop racing if anything fishy happens at the ring.

[bhall]

[...]
I thought the waves would be a problem, but they were never even mentioned by Pirelli. Good that some people are not afraid to tell us the truth and we do not have to rely on the Pirelli half truth and PR whitewash.
When you encounter standing waves in the side walls they will take out safety reserves quicker than anything else that was mentioned by Pirelli. The Indy disaster is testimony for that. It shows once again that Pirelli are not honestly reporting about the tyre safety situation. That is very concerning. You have to trust your tyre supplier when you strap on a 700+ hp F1 rocket. The comments by the GPDA also show that they are not confident about Pirelli's assurances. They want to stop racing if anything fishy happens at the ring.

You read one article in Auto Motor und Sport that dealt with theories behind previous Michelin tire failures, and now you're a tire expert?

Jesus Christ, man.

[Huntresa]

[...]
I thought the waves would be a problem, but they were never even mentioned by Pirelli. Good that some people are not afraid to tell us the truth and we do not have to rely on the Pirelli half truth and PR whitewash.
When you encounter standing waves in the side walls they will take out safety reserves quicker than anything else that was mentioned by Pirelli. The Indy disaster is testimony for that. It shows once again that Pirelli are not honestly reporting about the tyre safety situation. That is very concerning. You have to trust your tyre supplier when you strap on a 700+ hp F1 rocket. The comments by the GPDA also show that they are not confident about Pirelli's assurances. They want to stop racing if anything fishy happens at the ring.

You read one article in Auto Motor und Sport that dealt with theories behind previous Michelin tire failures, and now you're a tire expert?

Jesus Christ, man.

But how is it a theory if someone like Ross Brawn says something similair happend with Michelin ?

[SectorOne]

Regardless of what Pirelli say was the cause, blaming curbs or what have you.

The thing that was clear was that the Pirelli´s was not sufficiently strong for an F1 car around Silverstone.
Then you can blame all kinds of things but the fact is the tire should be able to withstand these things.
(like they have done the previous two year)

[turbof1]

[...]
I thought the waves would be a problem, but they were never even mentioned by Pirelli. Good that some people are not afraid to tell us the truth and we do not have to rely on the Pirelli half truth and PR whitewash.
When you encounter standing waves in the side walls they will take out safety reserves quicker than anything else that was mentioned by Pirelli. The Indy disaster is testimony for that. It shows once again that Pirelli are not honestly reporting about the tyre safety situation. That is very concerning. You have to trust your tyre supplier when you strap on a 700+ hp F1 rocket. The comments by the GPDA also show that they are not confident about Pirelli's assurances. They want to stop racing if anything fishy happens at the ring.

You read one article in Auto Motor und Sport that dealt with theories behind previous Michelin tire failures, and now you're a tire expert?

Jesus Christ, man.

This is actually old news. A few hours after the race they were already taking about standing waves. And seems to be true, as it is coming from multiple sources (except from Pirelli of course). The waves apperently are being created by weaving kevlar in the steel belt.

[WhiteBlue]

You read one article in Auto Motor und Sport that dealt with theories behind previous Michelin tire failures, and now you're a tire expert?
Jesus Christ, man.

I don't like the way you are distorting the facts, here. I have read about the standing waves years ago and I have been convinced long before people realized it that we were dealing with a dynamic failure mode. Coincidentally I have studied
mechanical engineering and certainly have more knowledge about dynamic loads that stem from oscillations than your average F1 fan. That does not make me a tyre engineer or expert. IMO you don't need more than a scientific education and some common sense to realize that something is wrong with Pirelli's whitewash PR.