Pirelli 2013

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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People still risk their lives in motor sport as the recent accidents in Canada, Le Mans and Kubica's accident in rallying showed. F1 with its flag ship role has advanced driver safety to a point where marshals and spectators are running a higher risk of getting hurt. But that is not necessarily a bad thing. It only shows that with its huge visibility and prominence on TV F1 is taking a spearhead role as it should. Open race cars with a standing start are historically the most dangerous ways to race. I fully agree with the ongoing push to make the circuits, the cars and the driver equipment better and better. It obviously works. http://jalopnik.com/why-drivers-still-d ... -563200728 This medical analysis does a good job to rate the historical safety break throughs.
Race car driver deaths due to sudden deceleration injuries to the aorta.
Allan Simonsen. Although we do not know the actual cause of death of Alan Simonson at yesterday’s 24 Hours of Le Mans, reports are that he was conscious and talking when rescue workers first tended to him, only to have him become unconscious a few moments later, to be pronounced dead a short time later. He was driving in one of the most modern sedan-type cars (not open-cockpit) and his factory sponsored Aston Martin had every possible modern piece of safety equipment. This in car video from the car behind shows the likely cause (our opinion) of Allan’s crash was acceleration of the car while the left rear tire was on the painted (and very slick in the wet) blue line. There was no evidence of penetrating injuries, and no evidence of blunt force trauma. Thus the likely cause of this terrible tragedy is almost certainly to be related to a sudden deceleration injury, either to the brain, or to the aorta.
Allan Simonsen had to die because Le Mans had no safety barrier in place where he lost control and crashed his car. If the accident had happened on an F1 track he would have lived because the TecPro or tyre barrier would have decelerated his car less violently. Would you ask F1 to go back to Le Mans standards of safety and not save the driver's life? I'm sure you would not want that. Accidents like Simonsen's are absolutely likely as a consequence of safety component failures. The only way to fight driver death by this cause is to have run offs and better deceleration barriers where run offs are not feasible.

Taking safety components very serious is appropriate for F1. I remember when rear wings failed on the Sauber cars. Peter Sauber stopped the other car until the safety investigation was fully conducted and the problem solved. That is the proper attitude for problems with safety components. I wish Pirelli had the same attitude. If we had lost Kimi or Fernando in an accident by being hit in the helmet by a flying tyre tread people would immediately agree that it was too dangerous. Why does it has to happen before we agree to do something?
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

autogyro
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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I agree that developments in safety equipment are valid and commendable.
The spin offs into road vehicle safety world wide are obvious and the lives saved number in thousands.

It posses a very interesting question though.

Is the purpose of F1 in the 21st century solely for developments in road safety and advertising?
The technical regulations prevent real development in powertrains and the circus is definitely no longer about the best tyres.

True the upside down model aeroplane technology continues to fight against regulations and although hamstrung almost completely it still makes up the biggest performance benefit so long as huge budgets are involved.

My fear is that the place of the driver as any sort of super sportsman prepared to take risks will soon be replaced by F1 electronics.
At presentit is only the physical fitness that seperates F1 drivers from any other computer nerd games player.

Richard
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Can we keep this on topic please?

We already have a lively safety thread :arrow: http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =1&t=13258

stefan_
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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"...and there, very much in flames, is Jacques Laffite's Ligier. That's obviously a turbo blaze, and of course, Laffite will be able to see that conflagration in his mirrors... he is coolly parking the car somewhere safe." Murray Walker, San Marino 1985

lebesset
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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so the steel belted tyres DID offer a performance advantage !

wonder why pirelli didn't track test them properly ; or did I miss something ? :o
to the optimist a glass is half full ; to the pessimist a glass is half empty ; to the F1 engineer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be

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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Image

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SectorOne
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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RACECAR ENGINEERING takes a look at the Pirelli situation,

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/arti ... -sequence/
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WhiteBlue
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Racecar Engineering wrote:If indeed F1 suddenly ... does a deal with Michelin then the French firm would almost certainly demand 18 inch wheel rims, which it already has a family of tyres to suit, used in LMP1, meaning that the tyres will have much lower profiles.

Mercedes has reportedly already called for a switch to wider rims to deal with the additional torque generated by the 2014 power units. Some figures such as Ferrari’s James Allison refuse to accept that Michelin could be ready for 2014, but others such as Nigel Stepney insist that the deal is already done. So perhaps the tyres will still dominate talk in the paddock in the second half of the year but for very different reasons.
Very interesting indeed. Mercedes was the only team that was telling the press about the difficulties with standing waves in the 2013 Mark I tyres at Silverstone. If they think that the doubling of the torque will be an issue that can be positively impacted by a lower profile they are probably concerned that they could get into the same problems again that made them uncompetitive for almost half a season with the fastest car on the grid. If low profile tyres can stop such things you can expect Red Bull and Mercedes to go against Ferrari in the issue.

The options for intrigue are endless. What if Mercedes have suddenly safety concerns with 13 inch rims. Todt could simply call for a supply with 17 or 18 inch rim tyres based on safety and Pirelli would be holding an empty can. Michelin will have massive experience from LMP1 with high torque from the Audi diesels and 18 inch rims and will take up the slack in no time to produce F1 tyres. The cat will be among the pidgeons only this time it will not be Ecclestone doing the manipulations but Todt. And there is no Concord in place yet. Only a MoU. So Todt's powers will be much bigger without the formal empowerment of an F1 commission.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Holm86
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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WhiteBlue wrote:
Racecar Engineering wrote:If indeed F1 suddenly ... does a deal with Michelin then the French firm would almost certainly demand 18 inch wheel rims, which it already has a family of tyres to suit, used in LMP1, meaning that the tyres will have much lower profiles.

Mercedes has reportedly already called for a switch to wider rims to deal with the additional torque generated by the 2014 power units. Some figures such as Ferrari’s James Allison refuse to accept that Michelin could be ready for 2014, but others such as Nigel Stepney insist that the deal is already done. So perhaps the tyres will still dominate talk in the paddock in the second half of the year but for very different reasons.
Very interesting indeed. Mercedes was the only team that was telling the press about the difficulties with standing waves in the 2013 Mark I tyres at Silverstone. If they think that the doubling of the torque will be an issue that can be positively impacted by a lower profile they are probably concerned that they could get into the same problems again that made them uncompetitive for almost half a season with the fastest car on the grid. If low profile tyres can stop such things you can expect Red Bull and Mercedes to go against Ferrari in the issue.

The options for intrigue are endless. What if Mercedes have suddenly safety concerns with 13 inch rims. Todt could simply call for a supply with 17 or 18 inch rim tyres based on safety and Pirelli would be holding an empty can. Michelin will have massive experience from LMP1 with high torque from the Audi diesels and 18 inch rims and will take up the slack in no time to produce F1 tyres. The cat will be among the pidgeons only this time it will not be Ecclestone doing the manipulations but Todt. And there is no Concord in place yet. Only a MoU. So Todt's powers will be much bigger without the formal empowerment of an F1 commission.
I fail to see how anyone could relate any sort of safety issues to the 13" rim size. Not even standing waves.

And if Michelin insists on having 18" wheels its fine by me. But that would also mean that they will enter F1 in 2015 earliest.

Hobbs04
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Posted May 12
Hobbs04 wrote: Everyone needs to cool down about the tires. It's barely racing but next year we will be complaining about power trains where (fill in the blank) team has too much horsepower and ERS is always 100% charged. Or the next gizmo f duct, fric, dominates who knows. Pirelli is just stirring it up so we have something to watch other than Red Bull dominance. Enjoy it because either way Pirelli is going to change tires they bring to the races to make sure the championship goes down to the last races. If red bull starts to dominate they will choose the tires that even up the field. Or vice versa with Ferrari.
Just my prediction/conspiracy theory coming true. Red bull start to dominate and wah lah we have new tires that appear to suit Mercedes well. I'm not saying Red Bull will lose either championship but it should go down to the wire. Thanks Pirelli I almost stopped watching this year.

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Kiril Varbanov
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Tech bite: some of the teams are using Thermal imaging to understand tire heat in a visual manner. The vendor is Thermoteknix.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlLmF8LAHUM[/youtube]

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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AMuS, Michel Schmidt wrote:In der Woche nach Ungarn entscheidet sich, mit welchen Reifen 2014 gefahren wird. Mercedes wünscht sich breitere und größere Reifen. Ferrari und Renault wollen, dass alles beim Alten bleibt. Die FIA zieht nach einem Check der Simulationsdaten einen Kompromiss in Erwägung. Wir haben die ersten Infos.

Die Simulationsdaten für die 2014er Reifen tröpfeln bei der FIA und bei Pirelli ein. Was dürfen wir 2014 von den Rennautos erwarten? Obwohl die Daten geheim sind, hat auto motor und sport schon einige spannende Details herausgefunden.

Auf den Geraden werden die Autos wegen der höheren Motorleistung und des reduzierten Abtriebs etwas schneller werden. Man rechnet in Monza mit Topspeeds von bis zu 350 km/h. "Wir sind dort schon einmal 370 km/h gefahren", beschwichtigt McLaren-Teamchef Martin Whitmarsh.

Die Kurvengeschwindigkeiten werden trotz der kastrierten Aerodynamik höher liegen, als es die Regelhüter zu hoffen gewagt hatten - etwa im Bereich der 2012er Fahrzeug-Generation. Wegen des fast verdoppelten Drehmoments werden die Hinterräder deutlich mehr in die Pflicht genommen. "Wir rechnen mit deutlich mehr Schlupf", meint Pirelli-Sportchef Paul Hembery.

Das führte zu Überlegungen, die Hinterreifen für 2014 um zwei Zentimeter zu verbreitern und den Durchmesser um drei Zentimeter zu vergrößern. Außerdem beantragte Pirelli vorne und hinten mit unterschiedlichen Gummimischungen fahren zu dürfen. Also vorne weicher als hinten.

Nach einer ersten Durchsicht der Daten kristallisiert sich ein Kompromiss heraus. Bis Ende der Woche fällt eine Entscheidung. Unterschiedliche Mischungen vorne und hinten sind wahrscheinlich. Breitere Hinterreifen möglich. Größere Umfänge dagegen werden wohl kaum eine Zustimmung der FIA finden.Die meisten Teams laufen Sturm gegen diese Maßnahme. "Wir müssten unsere Getriebe umkonstruieren", sagt Whitmarsh. "Die nächstjährigen Kraftübertragungen sind für die aktuellen Reifenumfänge gebaut. Steigt der Durchmesser, steigen die Drehmomente für die Gangräder. Dieser späte Eingriff in die Entwicklung käme zu teuer."
AMuS say that Merc demanded 20 mm wider tyres with 30 mm bigger diameter in order to cope with increased torque (slip in lower gears). Pirelli have asked the FiA to supply two different compounds in 2014. Soft for the front and harder for the rears. AMuS think that dia changes will be shot down due to gearbox design being already finalized and changes in gearing to be expensive. They reckon two compounds will be allowed.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

xpensive
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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WhiteBlue wrote: ...
AMuS say that Merc demanded 20 mm wider tyres with 30 mm bigger diameter in order to cope with increased torque (slip in lower gears).
...
It's of course the wheel-torque that matters, or rather the traction force on the contact-patch, and with the same total power as in 2013 this will be no different next year. Engine-torque before the gearbox and final drive is irrelevant.

Power is always force times speed, that's all there is to it, but the myth about engine torque refuses to go away.

Moreover, braking forces on the tires are much higher than traction forces anyway.

The german specialized press I guess?
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WhiteBlue
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I knew you would say that. Why don't you write an letter to Ross Brawn and tell him about his mistakes? I'm sure he will appreciate it. After all Schmidt is only reporting the facts and I have just copied and translated the main bits.

Could there be an outside chance that the torque curve of the new engines will actually make a difference to the way the lower gears transmit power to the wheels in comparison with the current cars? So what if they have simply more power in the lower gears than they have now, hence more slip?

The reference to slip is a dead give away that they are concerned with cornering. I don't think the slip under breaking will change so much for the drivers to produce more slip in a straight line. Powering out of corners will be all the difference with a torquier engine. At least that is the story if you listen to drivers who have driven the Audi diesels which also have this characteristic.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Slip? If you believe all that is written in AMuS perhaps, but then you might as well believe in the tooth fairy while you're at it.

See there's this ingenious thing called gearbox, which converts power, torque and rpm back and forth like you wouldn't believe.

When drivers refer to a "torquey" engine, they typically mean a wide power band in the lower revs, which will not happen in F1 next year with the progressive fuel-flow, look up the regulations in that context.
Last edited by xpensive on 01 Aug 2013, 20:26, edited 1 time in total.
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