2015 Pre-season Testing

[XRayF1]

Clearly, last year Williams missed one or two win, at Abu Dhabi and Montreal.

And guys, last year Williams had a good chassis if you considering the track where they are dominant (behind Merc obviously). McLaren had, Mobil 1 fuel/lubricants who give them a poor Top Speed for exemple at Monza the two McLaren are only on 11/12th place, behind some Renault powered team and Ferrari. After, it's not a secret, Mercedes was not as attentive with McLaren than the others team especially Williams.

Anyway, with Mercedes, McLaren in long term prespective will never fight for a Championship..

Do you really believe that - Merc not being attentive enough?
This is just Dennis speaking, hiding his own butt.
The only source of this allegation came from the horse's mouth, and nobody else.
None of the other Merc-powered teams even hinted any lack of support from Brixworth at any *point in the season!

Having said that RD HAD every reason to do as such.
For one, Force India, good heavens, were almost able to be on par with McLaren, who are spending a lot more money on F1 than FI. Has a much bigger design department. Has a much bigger engineering. Has a much bigger ... everything.
He had to build a defensive argument for his sponsors, because why should any new sponsor go for McL if they may get the same marketing exposure for surely much less money judging from the amount of points FI got?

No, I really believe that McL has to ramp up their quality levels quite a bit if they want to compete for the pidiums or even a race win. In every dimension.
Blaming someone else for your own shortcomings, is just bad.

Have you got a short memory? The engine that Mercedes delivered to McLaren in February 2014 was a different shape to the one promised. It had a completely different exhaust layout. So different McLaren had gaps between bodywork and PU that you could fit small children into! The whole philosophy with the car was based that they would be rear end limited, when they left Bahrain they knew they were front end limited and some of that was the shape of the engine being changed. Mercedes knew their relationship with McLaren was over and they acted as such.

Such relationship you just described has been terminated by McLaren, voluntarily I might add. McL terminated their connection to Mercedes after, what was it 15 years? In just a blink if an eye, with Dennis returning. Why?
Secondly, the other 2 Merc-powered teams had a better package at the rear end as well. How could they do that? Do you really think it was a deliberate act by Merc to hurt McL? Why would they do that?
Do you think that their different exhaust layout may also have come from their different rear suspension?

[damager21]

Such relationship you just described has been terminated by McLaren, voluntarily I might add. McL terminated their connection to Mercedes after, what was it 15 years? In just a blink if an eye, with Dennis returning. Why?
Secondly, the other 2 Merc-powered teams had a better package at the rear end as well. How could they do that? Do you really think it was a deliberate act by Merc to hurt McL? Why would they do that?
Do you think that their different exhaust layout may also have come from their different rear suspension?

I believe McLaren decided to terminate their relationship with Mercedes for the following reasons:
1. Mercedes started their own F1 team. As a top team, McLaren would never want Mercedes to have access to their plans for current year and future. By default, because of being an engine supplier, Mercedes would get access to a lot of McLaren data
2. Mercedes started charging McLaren for engine supply. All these years it was a partnership where engines were freely available to McLaren. Now suddenly there was a situation where McLaren was a client just because Mercedes started their own team
3. Thanks to years of partnership, Mercedes had built a good relationship with McLaren employees & other partners. It is no fluke that Paddy Lowe, Lewis Hamilton, Hugo Boss have all joined Mercedes

I am sure McLaren would have sensed a genuine threat in continuing with Mercedes and hence the decision. So it would not be that in blink of an eye they decided to part ways.

Mercedes wanted to win the championship last year for which McLaren along with Ferrari and Red Bull were the key contenders. They had the option of controlling fate of one team and that's exactly what they did. Engine designing is complicated, its not that overnight someone would change layout and dimensions of the engine. They kept information under wraps till the last moment after which there was not much time for McLaren to take any corrective action. I am sure that Mercedes would not have expected Williams to be so strong. Remember 2009? No one expected Brawn GP team to win but it happened.

[Vasconia]

But what makes you think McLaren can make it better than Williams?
I mean, they should, but for a BIG 'but'.

McLaren will most probably not start in the first 4 rows for the first few races. My best guess is 8-10 races.
Which means they will have to fight their way through the field by strategy and infights (which I believe Alonso will excel at). With all the risk they will have to take doing that.
But McL with Boullier at the box (or whoever made their strategy) was not that too good at strategy last year as well.
Otherwise you can't explain why Williams got actually almost double points than McLaren - with the same PU, regardless what Dennis tells the press. And McL should have had a better chassis as well considering their budget.

All in all, it will be struggle for them all year through.
Currently, they simply do not know what their car is capable of.
May be the PU will never be able to show its full potential thus making it that much harder for the chassis to shine.
May be the car will be a star and consecutively win podiums or even more.
Right now, I am unfortunately a little pessimistic.

Err, interesting comments, but they are not very related to what I said. I simply asked why Alonso was going to destroy Mclaren.

I think that potentially Mclaren has a greater car than Williams, but we dont how good the Honda engine is and if the complex chasis of Mclaren can work with it. Unless they make a glorious comeback in the first races they should suffer a lot until Barcelona.

[SoCalWJS]

Such relationship you just described has been terminated by McLaren, voluntarily I might add. McL terminated their connection to Mercedes after, what was it 15 years? In just a blink if an eye, with Dennis returning. Why?
Secondly, the other 2 Merc-powered teams had a better package at the rear end as well. How could they do that? Do you really think it was a deliberate act by Merc to hurt McL? Why would they do that?
Do you think that their different exhaust layout may also have come from their different rear suspension?

I believe McLaren decided to terminate their relationship with Mercedes for the following reasons:
1. Mercedes started their own F1 team. As a top team, McLaren would never want Mercedes to have access to their plans for current year and future. By default, because of being an engine supplier, Mercedes would get access to a lot of McLaren data
2. Mercedes started charging McLaren for engine supply. All these years it was a partnership where engines were freely available to McLaren. Now suddenly there was a situation where McLaren was a client just because Mercedes started their own team
3. Thanks to years of partnership, Mercedes had built a good relationship with McLaren employees & other partners. It is no fluke that Paddy Lowe, Lewis Hamilton, Hugo Boss have all joined Mercedes

I am sure McLaren would have sensed a genuine threat in continuing with Mercedes and hence the decision. So it would not be that in blink of an eye they decided to part ways.

Mercedes wanted to win the championship last year for which McLaren along with Ferrari and Red Bull were the key contenders. They had the option of controlling fate of one team and that's exactly what they did. Engine designing is complicated, its not that overnight someone would change layout and dimensions of the engine. They kept information under wraps till the last moment after which there was not much time for McLaren to take any corrective action. I am sure that Mercedes would not have expected Williams to be so strong. Remember 2009? No one expected Brawn GP team to win but it happened.

All makes a lot of sense and seems very reasonable.

A question though - what about Ferrari and Renault? (please forgive me in advance if this is a silly question)

Both of those Manufacturers make engines for other Teams as well as having their own F1 Team. Wouldn't the same concerns apply to them? Is there some reason why Mclaren would feel that Mercedes would be more likely to take advantage of it's role as an Engine Supplier than either Ferrari or Renault?

[FoxHound]

Actually both wrong, not that it matters much.

Mercedes terminated the Mclaren ties because Mclaren and Mercedes did not see how to effectively replace the SLR roadcar. Mercedes then got news Mclaren were designing their own car (12C) and the Stuttgart bosses got peeved they were effectively funding a future road car rival.

So it was ordained that the ways would be split, but Mercedes would continue to provide engines for free up to the end of the V8 era.
Mclaren paid Mercedes in the region of 200/250 million to buy out Mercedes share of Mclaren.

This is not a case of McLaren picking and choosing what they want. Mclaren Honda is a marriage of necessity right now, rather than desire.

[Del Boy]

Actually both wrong, not that it matters much.

Mercedes terminated the Mclaren ties because Mclaren and Mercedes did not see how to effectively replace the SLR roadcar. Mercedes then got news Mclaren were designing their own car (12C) and the Stuttgart bosses got peeved they were effectively funding a future road car rival.

So it was ordained that the ways would be split, but Mercedes would continue to provide engines for free up to the end of the V8 era.
Mclaren paid Mercedes in the region of 200/250 million to buy out Mercedes share of Mclaren.

This is not a case of McLaren picking and choosing what they want. Mclaren Honda is a marriage of necessity right now, rather than desire.

I would add to that. Mercedes - Damiler-Benz were a 49% shareholder in McLaren and that had to bought back. Once offer to buy the whole team was refused, shareholders have to be found. Therefore McLaren had at least 5 years notice the relationship had problems, hardly a snap decision.

[Spoutnik]

Such relationship you just described has been terminated by McLaren, voluntarily I might add. McL terminated their connection to Mercedes after, what was it 15 years? In just a blink if an eye, with Dennis returning. Why?
Secondly, the other 2 Merc-powered teams had a better package at the rear end as well. How could they do that? Do you really think it was a deliberate act by Merc to hurt McL? Why would they do that?
Do you think that their different exhaust layout may also have come from their different rear suspension?

I believe McLaren decided to terminate their relationship with Mercedes for the following reasons:
1. Mercedes started their own F1 team. As a top team, McLaren would never want Mercedes to have access to their plans for current year and future. By default, because of being an engine supplier, Mercedes would get access to a lot of McLaren data
2. Mercedes started charging McLaren for engine supply. All these years it was a partnership where engines were freely available to McLaren. Now suddenly there was a situation where McLaren was a client just because Mercedes started their own team
3. Thanks to years of partnership, Mercedes had built a good relationship with McLaren employees & other partners. It is no fluke that Paddy Lowe, Lewis Hamilton, Hugo Boss have all joined Mercedes

I am sure McLaren would have sensed a genuine threat in continuing with Mercedes and hence the decision. So it would not be that in blink of an eye they decided to part ways.

Mercedes wanted to win the championship last year for which McLaren along with Ferrari and Red Bull were the key contenders. They had the option of controlling fate of one team and that's exactly what they did. Engine designing is complicated, its not that overnight someone would change layout and dimensions of the engine. They kept information under wraps till the last moment after which there was not much time for McLaren to take any corrective action. I am sure that Mercedes would not have expected Williams to be so strong. Remember 2009? No one expected Brawn GP team to win but it happened.

You understand my opinion.

@DelBoy : I don't try to blaming, or say "isn't McLaren fault"
That's a reality, Mercedes want to win, want to dominate the Sport, in the history of Formula One, which manufacturer (Engine+Chassis) let a contender (who only made his chassis and had manufacturer engine) fight/win with equal chance ?

That's like Red Bull Racing, they start with Ferrari engine, and they move to Renault after (in 2007 I think), why ? Look at 2010/2013 years. Additional things; this year the engine take a more important place in global performance.

[FoxHound]

I would add to that. Mercedes - Damiler-Benz were a 49% shareholder in McLaren and that had to bought back. Once offer to buy the whole team was refused, shareholders have to be found. Therefore McLaren had at least 5 years notice the relationship had problems, hardly a snap decision.

The relationship was holding as firm as it ever had been in 2006, a full 3/4 years after Mercedes attempted takeover.
Mutually beneficial.

But 3 things happened to dislodge the status quo. Spygate, Liegate.....and McLaren's road car plans.
There was apoplexy in Stuttgart over all 3. But the straw that broke the camels back was the road car.
So no, it wasn't a snap decision.
My personal opinion is that McLaren-Mercedes would still exist in it's pre 2010 form had McLaren not gone on to make the 12C. But then, that is McLaren's prerogative and my overriding impression is one of an amicable split.

No fault with either, just winners and losers in those sorts of situations.

[mrluke]

Clearly, last year Williams missed one or two win, at Abu Dhabi and Montreal.

And guys, last year Williams had a good chassis if you considering the track where they are dominant (behind Merc obviously). McLaren had, Mobil 1 fuel/lubricants who give them a poor Top Speed for exemple at Monza the two McLaren are only on 11/12th place, behind some Renault powered team and Ferrari. After, it's not a secret, Mercedes was not as attentive with McLaren than the others team especially Williams.

Anyway, with Mercedes, McLaren in long term prespective will never fight for a Championship..

Do you really believe that - Merc not being attentive enough?
This is just Dennis speaking, hiding his own butt.
The only source of this allegation came from the horse's mouth, and nobody else.
None of the other Merc-powered teams even hinted any lack of support from Brixworth at any *point in the season!

Having said that RD HAD every reason to do as such.
For one, Force India, good heavens, were almost able to be on par with McLaren, who are spending a lot more money on F1 than FI. Has a much bigger design department. Has a much bigger engineering. Has a much bigger ... everything.
He had to build a defensive argument for his sponsors, because why should any new sponsor go for McL if they may get the same marketing exposure for surely much less money judging from the amount of points FI got?

No, I really believe that McL has to ramp up their quality levels quite a bit if they want to compete for the pidiums or even a race win. In every dimension.
Blaming someone else for your own shortcomings, is just bad.

Have you got a short memory? The engine that Mercedes delivered to McLaren in February 2014 was a different shape to the one promised. It had a completely different exhaust layout. So different McLaren had gaps between bodywork and PU that you could fit small children into! The whole philosophy with the car was based that they would be rear end limited, when they left Bahrain they knew they were front end limited and some of that was the shape of the engine being changed. Mercedes knew their relationship with McLaren was over and they acted as such.

Pretty sure the exhausts, cooler piping etc were designed by each team.. ?

[R_Redding]

Pretty sure the exhausts, cooler piping etc were designed by each team.. ?

The exhausts are covered by tokens now ...so must be an engine supplier item.

[f1316]

Not that it's any skin off my nose but have to say this seems a long way from a discussion about testing.

Interesting that some suggest there could be as much as two seconds between mediums and super softs. I personally don't believe that in those conditions there's anything like that much difference - given all the talk about not being able to switch on tyres, I suspect Mercedes were focusing on mediums because they were the right tyre for the conditions (Maldonado mentioned that super softs weren't great in the conditions).

But let's suppose the gap could be as much as 2 secs. This would mean a theoretical 1:22.3 - lap record is only 1:21.8. Granted, 2004 times aren't comparable because of layout changes but still impressive if these cars are that close to the lap record.

[Juzh]

Different layout. Cant possibly be conpared. lap record on this layout is 1.19.9
Hamilton said medium tyres were terrible and didnt work at all. 2s gap between ss and med is normal and not stretching it at all.

[f1316]

Different layout. Cant possibly be conpared. lap record on this layout is 1.19.9
Hamilton said medium tyres were terrible and didnt work at all. 2s gap between ss and med is normal and not stretching it at all.

No, 2008 had the same layout, but I correct myself, raikkonen lap record was a 1:21.6

Other cars who did try all tyres didn't seem to be finding 2 secs but if so it brings theoretically possible times close to the record

[ME4ME]

Got to agree with f1316, I don't think it's anywhere near 2 seconds either. What Hamilton says about the tyres should be taken with a grain of salt; he doesn't like any of them, nor does he like testing.

[Harsha]

Supersoft and Spain don't go hand in hand due to nature of Supersoft which heats up to give the grip but also due to the T3,4,9 and final corner the tires over heat. So the Super Soft is 1.2 -1.5 sec faster than Medium can't be applied. Merc is faster by 1 to 1.2 sec over the second best car i presume.