As pre-season winter testing has come to an end, McLaren looks back on a troubled 12 days, admitting the team will face a difficult start to the season.
you are rightFoxHound wrote:I think the entire point to the retention or acquisition of Webber or Barrichello as drivers, was that they wouldn't Pose a threat to the number 1's.
I have a soft spot for Nico. I want him to win a WDC but i can't really see it happening with Lewis as his teammate. I think after winning his 3rd WDC Lewis should depart Mercedes to Williams and give Nico an easier chance. p.s. This is only valid if Fernando is not in the other Merc seat.turbof1 wrote:@Vasconia: Yes I get that. In that respect 2010 was a very good year: having 3 teams involved and 2 pairs of teammates vying for the title. Concerning the championship it was very tense. Having 5 people involved instead of 2 is of course more appealing. If I had to choose between 2010 and 2014, 2010 wins of course.
Agreed that some of Hamilton's moves were controversial too. There are surely other things I forget, but you get the point.
I think if Rosberg wins alteast once the WDC, I think people will start to think differently about 2014, and about Rosberg.
Some of us remember Rubens being told, not asked, to slow down from a dominant lead to allow Michael to take the win. We also remember Michael looking suitably embarrassed by the episode. We also remember Webber being perfectly able to handle Vettel until RedBull developed their blown diffuser which happened to suit Vettel way more than Webber.ismail1991 wrote:I am fed up with the comments about ferrari or redbull not allowing Rubens or Webber to race with their teammates. If we remember Schumacher's time with Ferrari in 2000s, when schumacher won the race, did Rubens come second? No he didn't. He sometimes couldn't be even at the podium. There were often mclarens or williams between them. When schumacher got the pole, Rubens couldn't get the other front row like in the case of Mercedes drivers. Therefore, I think people shouldn't try to blame Rubens' or Webber's incompetence to Ferrari or Redbull. Schumacher was way better driver than Rubens and he won those races and championships fair and squarenokivasara wrote: During the Schumi era his teammates weren't allowed to race him like we saw Nico and Lewis do last year. Ferrari was really dominant in those days, in 2002 they won 15 out of 17 races and in 2004 15 of 18.
We don't know if the Mercs will continue to be as dominant as in 2014, there's no reason to give up on the sport just yet.
Yes. Very interesting observations. I think Ross Bawn was the key to Mercedes' early confidence. You see, Ferrari's working structure and budget scheme was mainly formulated by Ross Brawn. Ross knew, even when he was working for Honda, how much money and resources it takes to create a dominating car. That same formula, and his working knowledge of Ferrari's budget gave him a guideline. He in fact dumped as much money and resource as Merc would allow him to, to get that surety that they would be among the leaders in the new era. Bear in mind that it was not wasteful spending. If we read closely Ross Brawn's words while he was at Merc, he made it clear that the budgets for those cars were very frugal. Most people couldn't believe that such a huge brand such as Mercedes would be so mean with their spending. But the smart ones... the smart ones had that feeling that all of the money was going somewhere else behind closed doors... Building the PU106...Cale24 wrote:Speaking of dominant cars, everyone knows during the design phase of a car what the regulations for the following year entails. I always found it interesting how Mercedes, during 2013, KNEW and were 100% convinced they were going to be a real force to be reckoned with in 2014 and publicly said as much. Not blatantly, but they certainly hinted at their confidence in the 2014 project (can recall Ross Brawn saying so, and reminded me of 2009, although even then how were they sure only they had been smart enough to have cooked up a double diffuser?).
Sure, Mercedes invested heavily in the next generation engines, but who's to say Ferrari or Renault would not be on par? The engine and aero numbers must have all looked so good in general that they simply couldn't have expected similar from the rival teams, lest we forget a dominant Red Bull for 4 years straight. I assume that it comes down to their sheer investment in general- loads of staff including 5 former technical directors and, ultimately, several design teams evaluating 3 car design directions at once. And yet Toyota proved that simply throwing money at F1 cannot assure success (One Aim...missed the target).
Ferrari even had Rory Byrne involved in a more hands-on role for the 2014 project- I remember he brushed off the design challenge of the 2013 Ferrari car as 'childs play' and yet his mentorship fell far far short in the worst year for the team since 1993. He has some face to save on that front I'd say although I prefer to blame most Ferrari failings on that hack Tombazis.
The confident Mercedes 2013 talk is slightly echoed by McLaren-Honda lately, and with their ingredients, it may well be them giving Mercedes the most hassles in years to come.
Fair enough, but that's not really what I meant. I have never seen a WCC contestent let their drivers go at it like Mercedes did last year, yes the car was way ahead the competition but we actually got some great racing between the team mates.ismail1991 wrote:I am fed up with the comments about ferrari or redbull not allowing Rubens or Webber to race with their teammates. If we remember Schumacher's time with Ferrari in 2000s, when schumacher won the race, did Rubens come second? No he didn't. He sometimes couldn't be even at the podium. There were often mclarens or williams between them. When schumacher got the pole, Rubens couldn't get the other front row like in the case of Mercedes drivers. Therefore, I think people shouldn't try to blame Rubens' or Webber's incompetence to Ferrari or Redbull. Schumacher was way better driver than Rubens and he won those races and championships fair and squarenokivasara wrote: During the Schumi era his teammates weren't allowed to race him like we saw Nico and Lewis do last year. Ferrari was really dominant in those days, in 2002 they won 15 out of 17 races and in 2004 15 of 18.
We don't know if the Mercs will continue to be as dominant as in 2014, there's no reason to give up on the sport just yet.
I understood you. My point is Lewis and Rosberg were close matches not only last year but also in 2013. However, Rubens and Webber could only compete with their teammates at only some races. That's why, neither Ferrari or Redbull didn't need to make a decision between their drivers because one of them was much better than the other.nokivasara wrote: Fair enough, but that's not really what I meant. I have never seen a WCC contestent let their drivers go at it like Mercedes did last year, yes the car was way ahead the competition but we actually got some great racing between the team mates.
So even though Mercedes was dominant we still got to see some wheel to wheel action, something that hasn't been seen too often, certainly not in the early 00's in Ferrari.
Anyway, I'm sure the other teams are doing what they can and we will have some close racing even in 2015. If not, lets hope for a better 2016
Your argument is not related to what I said in my opinion. Those two cases happened but they was unnecessary. While Michael was winning 10 races in one season and rubens won only two, that ferrari chose michael as their number one driver is very natural to me.Just_a_fan wrote:
Some of us remember Rubens being told, not asked, to slow down from a dominant lead to allow Michael to take the win. We also remember Michael looking suitably embarrassed by the episode. We also remember Webber being perfectly able to handle Vettel until RedBull developed their blown diffuser which happened to suit Vettel way more than Webber.
I agree. But in my first post about this my point was that 1-team domination is not a new thing, that it actually was even more "boring" back in the day when there was just that #1 driver in the dominant team that won over and over. In some cases because of team orders and sometimes (mostly) because he was the quickest. But yes, Rubens wasn't even close to MSC, if he had been he wouldn't have gotten the seat.ismail1991 wrote:I understood you. My point is Lewis and Rosberg were close matches not only last year but also in 2013. However, Rubens and Webber could only compete with their teammates at only some races. That's why, neither Ferrari or Redbull didn't need to make a decision between their drivers because one of them was much better than the other.nokivasara wrote: Fair enough, but that's not really what I meant. I have never seen a WCC contestent let their drivers go at it like Mercedes did last year, yes the car was way ahead the competition but we actually got some great racing between the team mates.
So even though Mercedes was dominant we still got to see some wheel to wheel action, something that hasn't been seen too often, certainly not in the early 00's in Ferrari.
Anyway, I'm sure the other teams are doing what they can and we will have some close racing even in 2015. If not, lets hope for a better 2016
You raise a good point yeah- and like most, I felt Ross Brawn deserved better than to be manoeuvred out of the Mercedes team after being the architect of so much of the success. His Ferrari and even Benetton days would have contributed to that, and it would actually have been interesting to see him as the new Ferrari boss for a final chapter.PlatinumZealot wrote:Yes. Very interesting observations. I think Ross Bawn was the key to Mercedes' early confidence. You see, Ferrari's working structure and budget scheme was mainly formulated by Ross Brawn. Ross knew, even when he was working for Honda, how much money and resources it takes to create a dominating car. That same formula, and his working knowledge of Ferrari's budget gave him a guideline. He in fact dumped as much money and resource as Merc would allow him to, to get that surety that they would be among the leaders in the new era. Bear in mind that it was not wasteful spending. If we read closely Ross Brawn's words while he was at Merc, he made it clear that the budgets for those cars were very frugal. Most people couldn't believe that such a huge brand such as Mercedes would be so mean with their spending. But the smart ones... the smart ones had that feeling that all of the money was going somewhere else behind closed doors... Building the PU106...Cale24 wrote:Speaking of dominant cars, everyone knows during the design phase of a car what the regulations for the following year entails. I always found it interesting how Mercedes, during 2013, KNEW and were 100% convinced they were going to be a real force to be reckoned with in 2014 and publicly said as much. Not blatantly, but they certainly hinted at their confidence in the 2014 project (can recall Ross Brawn saying so, and reminded me of 2009, although even then how were they sure only they had been smart enough to have cooked up a double diffuser?).
Sure, Mercedes invested heavily in the next generation engines, but who's to say Ferrari or Renault would not be on par? The engine and aero numbers must have all looked so good in general that they simply couldn't have expected similar from the rival teams, lest we forget a dominant Red Bull for 4 years straight. I assume that it comes down to their sheer investment in general- loads of staff including 5 former technical directors and, ultimately, several design teams evaluating 3 car design directions at once. And yet Toyota proved that simply throwing money at F1 cannot assure success (One Aim...missed the target).
Ferrari even had Rory Byrne involved in a more hands-on role for the 2014 project- I remember he brushed off the design challenge of the 2013 Ferrari car as 'childs play' and yet his mentorship fell far far short in the worst year for the team since 1993. He has some face to save on that front I'd say although I prefer to blame most Ferrari failings on that hack Tombazis.
The confident Mercedes 2013 talk is slightly echoed by McLaren-Honda lately, and with their ingredients, it may well be them giving Mercedes the most hassles in years to come.
Your first post was clear and I agree with what you said. I didn't like what you said about Schumi's teammates were not allowed to race with him. I see now you agreed with me about rubens couldn't challenge michael because of his own incompetence. In order to be clear about my point, I am saying it again if your teammate got pole and you took fourth position on the grid (which was Rubens' grid position most of the time) you can't expect a fight between them like in the case of Nico and Lewis.nokivasara wrote:I agree. But in my first post about this my point was that 1-team domination is not a new thing, that it actually was even more "boring" back in the day when there was just that #1 driver in the dominant team that won over and over. In some cases because of team orders and sometimes (mostly) because he was the quickest. But yes, Rubens wasn't even close to MSC, if he had been he wouldn't have gotten the seat.ismail1991 wrote:I understood you. My point is Lewis and Rosberg were close matches not only last year but also in 2013. However, Rubens and Webber could only compete with their teammates at only some races. That's why, neither Ferrari or Redbull didn't need to make a decision between their drivers because one of them was much better than the other.nokivasara wrote: Fair enough, but that's not really what I meant. I have never seen a WCC contestent let their drivers go at it like Mercedes did last year, yes the car was way ahead the competition but we actually got some great racing between the team mates.
So even though Mercedes was dominant we still got to see some wheel to wheel action, something that hasn't been seen too often, certainly not in the early 00's in Ferrari.
Anyway, I'm sure the other teams are doing what they can and we will have some close racing even in 2015. If not, lets hope for a better 2016
English is not my first language, nor is it the second, so perhaps my point wasn't clear at first.
Bait not taken m8. If you read previous page (or even my post) you'd understand the context in which battle for 1st place was discussed.NathanOlder wrote:We had races for 1st place in Loads of races this year. Nico vs Lewis.Juzh wrote:. It takes multiple screw ups on all fronts so we can have any kind of race for 1st place..
And intense battles for the podium also, it just wasn't your man Seb producing the results, unfortunately for you anyway.
fair point but I suppose he already learnt something when he was usually slower than his team mates in 2006 and 2012.(and even in some tracks during 2010/2011)turbof1 wrote:Rosberg probably also need to get used to this kind of competition. In the past generally his raw speed kept him ahead of his teammate. Now that he needs to battle someone who is able to match that speed, he finds himself in a new situation.
2014 has been a good learning year for Rosberg. He'll be fiercer this year.
Interesting to listen to. With the Mercedes engine, you can barely hear the turbo-whistle. At first I thought that it might be due to the split turbo, but then Honda is supposed to have that as well and you can clearly hear it there...radosav wrote:[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-lZkkwF ... ata_player[/youtube]
