2015 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

[Lilith]

what do tyres have to do with revs?
If they were given a "stop/go" penalty... they were trying to save the minimum box time?

[Tauri_J]

hello. new member, but today I saw something that made me make an acc here.

the whole radio communication with hamilton was strange, and not elaborated.
While most think its the tyres thing, smthin came to mind.

its just a theory, but could it be that Merecdes knew the Nico car is going to fail, and fearing a safety car, they wanted to make sure Hamilton would have enough time to pit?

no

[Phil]

What an absolutely farce Pirelli has become.

I'm not sure I follow.

A tire pressure mandate makes sense because teams will do *anything* to gain an advantage where one is to be gained. That means treading a fine line between ultimate performance and potential failure of components. I suspect that running too low pressures nets the advantage that you might be able to keep the actual tire in better state, more contact patch with the surface and overall more control etc. On the disadvantage, you probably increase the load on the sidewalls which might be a problem if you drive over certain kerbs at high speed. However, tire pressures are, as have been pointed out by others, something very dynamic. You can lose tire temperature by coasting, by (virtual) safety cars or by decreasing track temperatures; and that in turn results in lower tire pressures. In the right combination, that could probably lead to dangerous situations where you are running a fine line between what the tire is capable of handling. This is not exclusive to Pirelli tires but will hold true for *any tire*. Sure, you can build stronger tires, but nothing is ever limitless, especially when teams will go any length to find that extra bit of performance. That's what F1 is about, right? Exploring limits.

Lets stop being unreasonable here. Tire pressure mandates make sense because we don't want a severe accident in F1 when cars are driven at 300+kmh. They are here to make teams keep within certain thresholds for safety reasons. This is no different then like banning the F-duct (which had drivers use their foot or hand which could be potentially dangerous) and other creative ideas on the grounds of safety. If we didn't have these kinds of rules, teams would come up with all sorts of things to extract even more performance at a higher (safety) risk.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

https://twitter.com/ScarbsF1/status/640555567870832640 https://twitter.com/ScarbsF1/status/640556441183645696 I am sure every team follows the same procedure, but why was it abnormal in Mercedes case? For argument sake, even if .3 is granted, but 1.1 is a big change. 1.1 simply can't be an error and I suspect some intent there and that could well have been executed on .3 too. It would be foolhardy to blame PIRELLI here. They do right, they get flak, they do wrong, they get flak. It's always a double edged sword for them. I agree with some here that, they got away because they are Mercedes and even Ferrari could have gotten away.

[Phil]

As AMuS explains, the problem with tire pressures is the question when you measure them. In theory, the best thing would be to measure them before the lights go off if you want to make sure that the cars start with adequate pressures. This however is logically not possible. The procedure was to measure them when the tires went on the car (which was supervised by Pirelli) and at that point all the tire pressures were within the limits. Once the car was waiting on the grid under tire blankets that were turned off, the tires cooled which decreased the pressures. At that time, the FIA did their measurement at which point one of them were below. With the warm up lap, all the tires again were above and within the limits.

So in reality, this whole tire pressure thing is just a bit of sensationalism. What the FIA needs to do is to determine exactly when the tires must meet the pressure requirement and inform the teams accordingly. If the rule is that they are never to be below a certain spec, they must first decide if that applies to just the race (when it can not be measured physically as the cars are in motion or not accessible) or also before the race when the cars are sitting on the grid. If and when the teams know, they will have to take appropriate measures (slightly over inflating the tires so they won't drop below what is required).

As for the question why other cars were not affected by this? Well, from what I understand, the FIA only checked 4 cars - both Ferraris and both Mercedes. We don't know if other cars were below that. Different cars require different tire pressures though. If the Mercedes cars are running more downforce, it's possible that they're ideal starting temp is lower because the downforce will create higher tire temperatures. Essentially - the optimum tire pressure of a specific tire will be within the same ballpark for all cars - but depending on how you drive or how much downforce your car creates, the car might generate more heat or less. A car that generates more heat will also lead to higher temperatures and therefore pressures. So to get the tires into the correct 'ideal' range, you might start at lower pressures vs. a car that doesn't and needs to start slightly higher.

[Phil]

BTW; As for the race.

I'm surprised by the lack of talk about Williams. They were very lucky to inherit that 3rd place podium, but in reality, I'm a bit surprised by their absolute lack of killer instinct. As it was, they could have simply waved past Rosberg, because the way he got by both Williams with the undercut just screams absolute amateurs. If they had any killer instinct at all, they would have pitted Massa *before* Mercedes had pitted Rosberg and he would not have been able to get past. But once again, they waited too long and when Rosberg did pit, they tried to cover Massa but it was already too late. They were extremely lucky to get on that podium.

As for Rosberg... I feel a bit gutted for him, but maybe it'll do him good. I fear Rosberg is a bit too passive for his own good. Maybe I'm wrong and he's giving everything that he can, but it just seems a bit that he's waiting a bit too much for 'faith' to come his way and that a DNF on Lewis's car might turn around the championship. Now that he is trailing by 53 points, it effectively means he can't win the WDC on his own anymore. There are 7 races left, so winning the next 7 races will only net him 49 points if Lewis finishes 2nd. Unlikely yes, but quite telling how significant a 53 point lead is. It also means Lewis can park his car twice and still lead the championship if Rosberg wins them both. How is this good for Rosberg? Well for him, it's not about playing the numbers game anymore. It's either 'give it all or give up' for him. I'm going to expect an incredible new Rosberg next race or a resigned one. A DNF by Lewis and a win by him might give him back that 'something'.

Anyway, as unlucky as Rosberg is, assuming he would have finished 3rd, he 'only' lost 15 points to Lewis with his DNF. Technically, it's all level now, as Lewis was robbed of Monaco by that utter stupid team decision and there Rosberg gained 17 points (he gained 7 points, Lewis lost 10). So with that DNF from 3rd position, the WDC gap is now what it could have been if that Monaco f***-up never happened.

[bonjon1979]

As AMuS explains, the problem with tire pressures is the question when you measure them. In theory, the best thing would be to measure them before the lights go off if you want to make sure that the cars start with adequate pressures. This however is logically not possible. The procedure was to measure them when the tires went on the car (which was supervised by Pirelli) and at that point all the tire pressures were within the limits. Once the car was waiting on the grid under tire blankets that were turned off, the tires cooled which decreased the pressures. At that time, the FIA did their measurement at which point one of them were below. With the warm up lap, all the tires again were above and within the limits.

So in reality, this whole tire pressure thing is just a bit of sensationalism. What the FIA needs to do is to determine exactly when the tires must meet the pressure requirement and inform the teams accordingly. If the rule is that they are never to be below a certain spec, they must first decide if that applies to just the race (when it can not be measured physically as the cars are in motion or not accessible) or also before the race when the cars are sitting on the grid. If and when the teams know, they will have to take appropriate measures (slightly over inflating the tires so they won't drop below what is required).

As for the question why other cars were not affected by this? Well, from what I understand, the FIA only checked 4 cars - both Ferraris and both Mercedes. We don't know if other cars were below that. Different cars require different tire pressures though. If the Mercedes cars are running more downforce, it's possible that they're ideal starting temp is lower because the downforce will create higher tire temperatures. Essentially - the optimum tire pressure of a specific tire will be within the same ballpark for all cars - but depending on how you drive or how much downforce your car creates, the car might generate more heat or less. A car that generates more heat will also lead to higher temperatures and therefore pressures. So to get the tires into the correct 'ideal' range, you might start at lower pressures vs. a car that doesn't and needs to start slightly higher.

The bizarre thing about all of this is that the cars have real time pressure readings fed back to the pits. The teams and therefore FIA can see exactly what the tyre pressures are at the moment the race starts. Pressure increasing with temperature is a pretty fundamental and basic law of science. It seems bizarre that the FIA would knowingly judge a tyres pressure when it is well below the temperature it'll be at at the start of the race. Surely, the sensible thing to do is to simply monitor the live pressure information at the start of the race, if anyone's below then they get penalised. Having some bloke wander around the grid with a gauge, measuring tyres that may or may not be being heated by a tyre warmer seems a very odd way to go about measuring something that everyone knows fluctuates quite widely with temperature. With regard to roberg's tyres, apparently the temperature was only 84 degrees. Increasing temperature by 26 degrees to the maximum allowed by tyre warmers I could well believe that the temperature would come up by 1.1psi or even more. There'll be a mathematical equation that one could do to prove it, but I can't really be arsed to work it out, especially as there are far brighter people on here than I who could probably do it at a click of their fingers.

[Phil]

I suspect they don't want to rely on the team readings as that is entirely in the teams hand and might not be 'accurate' (meaning they could be offset to dodge minimal pressure requirements). So the stewards might prefer to do selective sampling on an on-off basis to find any infringements...?

[bonjon1979]

I suspect they don't want to rely on the team readings as that is entirely in the teams hand and might not be 'accurate' (meaning they could be offset to dodge minimal pressure requirements). So the stewards might prefer to do selective sampling on an on-off basis to find any infringements...?

There is a Pirelli engineer, who supervises the pressurising of the tyres. If there were a discrepancy between what he saw when they filled the tyres compared with what was on the sensors then they would see it and report it. It would be monumentally foolish to try to pull something like this and do not believe for a second that a team would get away with it nor do I believe they would be stupid enough to try!

[iotar__]

It's repeating arguments time, 5 other teams get a penalty no questions asked. So when Mercedes told Ham to drive faster they weren't certain that blankets, earlier measurements etc. story would be sufficient which is weird since it's 100% certain for many people here. This is working backwards from a (bad) decision you like, not proper application of rules approach.

http://www.planetf1.com/driver/3213/771 ... ed-flagged

Hill: "If they let someone carry on racing with tyre pressures that they knew were below the pressure that Pirelli said was safe then why didn't they red flag him," he told Sky Sports F1. "If I was a racer who carried on to the race and was then told that I had been in an unsafe car I would be very annoyed and would want to know why they didn't bring me in."

No gagging order needed I guess. Nothing happened and they monitored it so it's fine like with Rosberg racing/speeding under yellows when winning Silverstone. Then everyone does that and you can end up in a crane under different circumstances. Not now, they give you a drive through for 0,2 s under SC.

Speaking of fiction and leaving Merc pressuregate:
- F1 expert Marchionne announced "new" Kimi after Q but had little to say after the race. Only good news marketing.
- classic Monza race is not worth re-watching and the only highlight is Mercedes admitting to pushing Rosberg's engine too much, it must have been a tough time, unlikely overtake of Vettel on the last lap and three points or maybe engine failure and championship decided? Decisions, decisions... You might as well skip watching the rest of the season.

[Phil]

You are correct. Though that of course depends on what the function of that Pirelli engineer is. From what I understand, he's more of a consultant than a 'steward'. If that were the case, I think Spa might have turned out differently. F1 is an evolving sport though and it is dealing with topics that it in the past never needed to. So perhaps the FIA has no 'legal' means to supervise that particular data yet, but after Monza now, they might enforce that in the future to make sure tire pressures can be enforceable.

I'm going to openly admit I have no idea why the FIA decided to make the measurements at the time that seems rather daft, but there must be a reason for it...

[bonjon1979]

It's repeating arguments time, 5 other teams get a penalty no questions asked. So when Mercedes told Ham to drive faster they weren't certain that blankets, earlier measurements etc. story would be sufficient which is weird since it's 100% certain for many people here. This is working backwards from a (bad) decision you like, not proper application of rules approach.

http://www.planetf1.com/driver/3213/771 ... ed-flagged

Hill: "If they let someone carry on racing with tyre pressures that they knew were below the pressure that Pirelli said was safe then why didn't they red flag him," he told Sky Sports F1. "If I was a racer who carried on to the race and was then told that I had been in an unsafe car I would be very annoyed and would want to know why they didn't bring me in."

No gagging order needed I guess. Nothing happened and they monitored it so it's fine like with Rosberg racing/speeding under yellows when winning Silverstone. Then everyone does that and you can end up in a crane under different circumstances. Not now, they give you a drive through for 0,2 s under SC.

Speaking of fiction and leaving Merc pressuregate:
- F1 expert Marchionne announced "new" Kimi after Q but had little to say after the race. Only good news marketing.
- classic Monza race is not worth re-watching and the only highlight is Mercedes admitting to pushing Rosberg's engine too much, it must have been a tough time, unlikely overtake of Vettel on the last lap and three points or maybe engine failure and championship decided? Decisions, decisions... You might as well skip watching the rest of the season.

Not sure what you mean about '5 other teams get penalties'.

Do you not think that Mercedes were covering bases? They're in the heat of a race situation, they don't know the full details of the investigation or what's gone on. So since they're 20 seconds ahead, why not go for 25 so they cover off the damage of a possible 25 second penalty?

With regard to being left out in a car that's unsafe, as I'm sure you know, the teams monitor tyre pressures constantly. They would've seen that the tyres WEREN'T below the recommended amount so there would be no reason to pull him off the track. It's frankly bizarre that you compare this incident with what happened to Bianchi. The facts are, the tyres were at the correct temperature at the start of the race. When the tyres were colder, when not even on the car, they were under as would all the other cars tyres have been if they were out of the blankets immediately before being checked. It's pretty basic stuff.

[f1316]

Changing tack a bit, there seems to be a lot of speculation that Ferrari now have a qualifying mode - and the result seems to indicate that we're looking at something a bit like Mercedes pre Canada, I.e. Something that can't be used throughout the race.

Still, it takes on a bit more signifance somewhere like Singapore, the place where the field were anomalously close in qualifying last year. If - and it's a huge if - the 0.23 gap from monza can somehow turn into a pole in Singapore, you'd say it'll be very hard to make a pass anywhere other than the pits, even with better race pace.

[Phil]

I agree, though I'm convinced Hamilton's engine wasn't turned up in Q3 for Monza as they usually do. As others have pointed out, his Q2 lap was quicker than the pole lap and I'm not sure it was because the track got significantly cooler. So perhaps the gap was closer than usual also because of that.

[Just_a_fan]

https://twitter.com/ScarbsF1/status/640555567870832640
https://twitter.com/ScarbsF1/status/640556441183645696
I am sure every team follows the same procedure, but why was it abnormal in Mercedes case? For argument sake, even if .3 is granted, but 1.1 is a big change. 1.1 simply can't be an error and I suspect some intent there and that could well have been executed on .3 too. [...] I agree with some here that, they got away because they are Mercedes and even Ferrari could have gotten away.

You missed the bit where they say that the tyres on the Mercedes cars were significantly cooler than on the other cars when checked on the grid? There is no "getting away with" involved. The procedure says tyre pressures are set when fitted to the car - and Pirelli have said the tyres were correctly set at that point in time.

The whole issue came about because the FIA "technical delegate" on track doesn't understand simple as school boy physics. The only people who did anything wrong in this debacle were the FIA. No one else. Just the FIA.