2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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Phil
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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bhall II wrote:The point here is not to absolve anyone of anything, only to say that what happened wasn't so far out of line that it should be considered unreasonable.

Sometimes --- happens.
I know you won't reply to this anymore, but I think the quote hits the nail on the head.

I think during any incident, it's important to consider the "intent" of the action in question. Do we want to see a driver, who already pretty much lost the position, force a collision in a desperate attempt to regain an advantage? Is that the ethos of racing?

I would think not. Yes, cars have been squeezed countless times on corner exit because on corner exit, the car on the inside, especially when ever so slightly ahead, is in a position that is considered to be favorable. The physics and the commitment to that corner will usually always mean that that driver is somewhat of a by passenger. Committed. The trajectory, the velocity, the steering angle and the radius of the corner will lead to the car being pulled to the outside of the corner, hence why the gap closes for the car on the outside. If that driver were to lift, he would risk weight shifting to the front and losing the rear. Depending on his position, he might not even see where the car on the outside is. Hence, being on the inside of a corner at corner exit is always favorable, unless circumstances are different, e.g. there is a large speed difference between the two, a driver made a mistake or something.

This however was corner entry. Hamilton had gained a favorable position by being slightly ahead. He did not see Rosberg (by being that bit ahead). Rosberg did not even attempt to steer into the corner, so his intent was slightly ambitious, the goal to force Hamilton wide, off track. It looked clumsy and very intentional of what he was trying there. He risked a collision. Had Hamilton been actually side by side, it would have worked, but due to Hamilton being that bit ahead, he couldn't even see him.

It's a similar situation in Barcelona. I respect the fact that he had the balls to defend his position at any cost, but when you have an issue (Barcelona wrong engine mode), I don't expect one to defend this aggressively or with the clear intent to completely push someone off the track in dangerous maneuver. Equally, I don't expect a driver who's already lost the advantage going into a corner to try and attempt to regain it using a "dirty move". If he's in a better position to actually "close the door" on someone on corner exit, fair enough. But not like this.

Beyond this, there never should have been race between these two. Hamilton was 8 seconds ahead when they pitted Rosberg early. His advantage he had driven out, was to make a 1-stop work. The team changed that strategy and eliminated that advantage for whatever reason which put them in contention for the same position. If anyone deserved this collision, Mercedes did.

I think the FIA penalty of 10 seconds is amusing. If it was given during the race without knowing what the outcome is and what gap the car would have, fair enough, but post-race and fully aware that the 10-second would yield ZERO impact doesn't sound like a punishment for me. I can't help but think, if this collision had taken place by two drivers of different teams, the FIA would have imposed a different penalty...
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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TAG
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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Picture worth 1000 words. Why Mercedes would call in Hamilton for the second stop when on new Soft that would clearly and easily finish the race is incomprehensible.

They keep going back to the 1 strategy that will get them to a 1-2 result, and typically that strategy is to accommodate the weaker driver. Yesterday's shunt was as much Mercedes' doing as it was Nico's.
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Pierce89
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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Phil wrote:
bhall II wrote:The point here is not to absolve anyone of anything, only to say that what happened wasn't so far out of line that it should be considered unreasonable.

Sometimes --- happens.
I know you won't reply to this anymore, but I think the quote hits the nail on the head.

I think during any incident, it's important to consider the "intent" of the action in question. Do we want to see a driver, who already pretty much lost the position, force a collision in a desperate attempt to regain an advantage? Is that the ethos of racing?

I would think not. Yes, cars have been squeezed countless times on corner exit because on corner exit, the car on the inside, especially when ever so slightly ahead, is in a position that is considered to be favorable. The physics and the commitment to that corner will usually always mean that that driver is somewhat of a by passenger. Committed. The trajectory, the velocity, the steering angle and the radius of the corner will lead to the car being pulled to the outside of the corner, hence why the gap closes for the car on the outside. If that driver were to lift, he would risk weight shifting to the front and losing the rear. Depending on his position, he might not even see where the car on the outside is. Hence, being on the inside of a corner at corner exit is always favorable, unless circumstances are different, e.g. there is a large speed difference between the two, a driver made a mistake or something.

This however was corner entry. Hamilton had gained a favorable position by being slightly ahead. He did not see Rosberg (by being that bit ahead). Rosberg did not even attempt to steer into the corner, so his intent was slightly ambitious, the goal to force Hamilton wide, off track. It looked clumsy and very intentional of what he was trying there. He risked a collision. Had Hamilton been actually side by side, it would have worked, but due to Hamilton being that bit ahead, he couldn't even see him.

It's a similar situation in Barcelona. I respect the fact that he had the balls to defend his position at any cost, but when you have an issue (Barcelona wrong engine mode), I don't expect one to defend this aggressively or with the clear intent to completely push someone off the track in dangerous maneuver. Equally, I don't expect a driver who's already lost the advantage going into a corner to try and attempt to regain it using a "dirty move". If he's in a better position to actually "close the door" on someone on corner exit, fair enough. But not like this.

Beyond this, there never should have been race between these two. Hamilton was 8 seconds ahead when they pitted Rosberg early. His advantage he had driven out, was to make a 1-stop work. The team changed that strategy and eliminated that advantage for whatever reason which put them in contention for the same position. If anyone deserved this collision, Mercedes did.

I think the FIA penalty of 10 seconds is amusing. If it was given during the race without knowing what the outcome is and what gap the car would have, fair enough, but post-race and fully aware that the 10-second would yield ZERO impact doesn't sound like a punishment for me. I can't help but think, if this collision had taken place by two drivers of different teams, the FIA would have imposed a different penalty...
I think the penalty was like that on purpose, because the stewards with telemetry dat a know MUCH more about the situation than anyone here, and they didn't think the actual evidence showed any ill intent, but everyone here knows better.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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TAG wrote:
Picture worth 1000 words. Why Mercedes would call in Hamilton for the second stop when on new Soft that would clearly and easily finish the race is incomprehensible.

They keep going back to the 1 strategy that will get them to a 1-2 result, and typically that strategy is to accommodate the weaker driver. Yesterday's shunt was as much Mercedes' doing as it was Nico's.
Exactly.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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Schuttelberg wrote:It took Bianchi's life to get the 'VSC' rule to come in (in regard to cranes on track) when the dubious practice was there for ages, I wonder if the same is being waited for in terms of these bubble gum tyres. It's just a bloody joke!!!
Most interesting post I´ve read since the race was finished

I´m not sure if we or F1 drivers are the frog inside the pot wondering if the water is too hot or not while temperature continue raising. Pirelli tires are, IMHO, a disgrace for F1. Yes I know they were asked to build tires with artificial wear, but they were not asked to build tires wich must be used with too high pressures slowing down the cars noticeably because they´re not safe enough at normal racing pressures, or tires wich explode when used too far without any indicator (pace drop) before.

I think it was DeLa Rosa in spanish TV who raised an interesting point, could high tire pressure teams are forced to use be a factor on those suspension failures? He didn´t go any futher, but it makes sense to me. Tires are part of the suspension after all, so increased tire pressures does actually affect cars suspensions. A higher tire pressure means the tire is more rigid so it is transmitting higher loads to the suspensions, I guess when suspensions were designed tire pressures were lower, so now the real load is higher than the proyected load. I know there are safety coeficients here and there, but this is F1, they´re not that high here, safety coeficients are a sinonym of useless weight from a pure engineering point of view, so keeping safety coeficients as low as posible is a must for F1 teams wich means they could be overpassed at some point like when they hit aggressive kebs with higher tire pressures



Anycase I wonder how current F1 would be with proper tires that don´t explode, that might be used to the limits for a decent percentage of their use, and can be used at normal pressures. Current F1 tires are a joke. Maybe F1 would not need new aero rules to improve cars pace and the show if tires would be performing as F1 tires should perform

sosic2121
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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Godius wrote:Max overtaking Ricciardo into turn 9

https://twitter.com/roelfaasen/status/7 ... 7583988736
looks like illegal overtake. all 4 wheels off the track

krisfx
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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Jolle wrote:
iotar__ wrote:OK I couldn't help myself ;-), deliberate off track pushing. Where is Hamilton going?? Call the press, Charlie Whiting and police, completely unacceptable.
http://i.cubeupload.com/rx2aY6.jpg
http://i.cubeupload.com/zK87fP.jpg
And again, think you must have a problem with where on track is what permitted or what options do you have?

Here it's naughty, and racing. Rosberg has a choice. Run off track (what he did I thought) or back off and drop behind Hamilton (what Hamilton and other WC drivers do in those kind of moments)

Last lap in austria was before the apex, under braking. No backing off there, no dropping in behind, just off track or a collision.

A bit OT, but look back to Bahrain 2012 when Rosberg was caught short defending, he tried to push two drivers off the circuit on a straight! - It's just daft, he cracks under pressure when a quicker driver closes in on him.

Jolle
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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krisfx wrote:
Jolle wrote:
iotar__ wrote:OK I couldn't help myself ;-), deliberate off track pushing. Where is Hamilton going?? Call the press, Charlie Whiting and police, completely unacceptable.
http://i.cubeupload.com/rx2aY6.jpg
http://i.cubeupload.com/zK87fP.jpg
And again, think you must have a problem with where on track is what permitted or what options do you have?

Here it's naughty, and racing. Rosberg has a choice. Run off track (what he did I thought) or back off and drop behind Hamilton (what Hamilton and other WC drivers do in those kind of moments)

Last lap in austria was before the apex, under braking. No backing off there, no dropping in behind, just off track or a collision.

A bit OT, but look back to Bahrain 2012 when Rosberg was caught short defending, he tried to push two drivers off the circuit on a straight! - It's just daft, he cracks under pressure when a quicker driver closes in on him.
For all Rosberg defenders:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xqbljq ... tion_sport

LionKing
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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GPR-A wrote: Errr.... so this is cleared I guess. On a 20 laps old UltraSofts, that Mercedes was still quicker than than a Ferrari on SuperSofts when Lewis pitted and the UltraSofts weren't supposed to last that long either. Everyone other than Lewis, who were on UltraSoft pitted at 10 (10+) lap mark. So, on merit, a Ferrari still can't beat the Mercs and win.
This is not true though.
When finally Kimi reached the second place, the gap was 3.564 sec at the end of lap 7.
At the end of lap 11 the gap between Kimi and Hamilton 4.153 sec.
At the end of lap 12, the gap was 4.395 sec.
At the end of the lap 21 before Lewis pitted the gap was 4.356 sec.

So for those last 10 laps the gap was virtually remained the same with Lewis (US) and Kimi (SS).
In 14 laps after Kimi got 2nd place, Lewis gained a whopping .792 sec over Kimi.

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Phil
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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TAG wrote:
Picture worth 1000 words. Why Mercedes would call in Hamilton for the second stop when on new Soft that would clearly and easily finish the race is incomprehensible.

They keep going back to the 1 strategy that will get them to a 1-2 result, and typically that strategy is to accommodate the weaker driver. Yesterday's shunt was as much Mercedes' doing as it was Nico's.

Indeed. What strikes me as particular odd, is that Hamilton gave up his advantage by aiming for that 1-stop. Rosberg stopped on lap 10, Hamilton on lap 21 for a new set of softs. At that point, Rosberg was technically ahead, which became apparent once Hamilton came out the pits.

Now, after what happened to Vettel on lap 26 on Super-Softs (which is quite odd, given Hamilton made Ultras last 21 laps), I can actually understand that Mercedes might have been unsure on how long the softs would last. But Vettels tire exploded on a relatively heavy car, driving a different pace than what Hamilton was putting his tires under. Another point; By lap 54 when for what ever reason, they decided to pit Hamilton, this was the current situation:

Lap 54:
Rosberg - softs (44 laps)
Hamilton - softs (33 laps)
Laps to go to the end: 17 laps.

Factually, they knew that Hamiltons tires were good for at least another 11 laps (given Rosberg had already done that many laps more on still very good consistent pace), bringing him to 6 laps short of completing the race. That the tire would blow was far fetched, given they represent the most durable tire for this track and the car was at its lightest with a car in the lead able to dictate his own pace. Looking at other cars, they also knew that Nasr had done 43 laps on that tire from the start of the GP with full of fuel.

Also to consider:

The gap to 3rd place Verstappen was ~16 seconds at that point. No threat from behind, even if the car was to run a slower pace. Worse than that, there was no reason to believe Verstappen pace would get better, as he too was on the same tire and likely to not stop again (as he indeed did not do). If they had only pitted Rosberg out of fear of his tires exploding, he would have had to make up a 22 second gap, including overtaking Verstappen, to catch Hamilton on his supposed 1-stop strategy.

Lets look at lap deltas: Before both Hamilton & Rosberg pitted, they were doing 1:08/1:09 lap times. After they pitted, they were still doing slightly better 1:08 and 1:09 lap times. So not much faster on the newer tires. One could deduct from this that Rosberg wouldn't have caught Hamilton. Ever.

Even if there was a risk of Hamiltons tires exploding too, he could have decreased the pace (which he would have done if Rosberg pitted), or the team could have always brought him in later saying "sorry Lewis, we misjudged, we think you should pit given there is a chance that the tire might disintegrate given the laps we are asking you to do on them - do you want to risk it?".

But nope, they pit Hamilton on the fresher tires first, only to then pit Rosberg too? Talk about artificially tampering... If I was Hamilton, I would want to know exactly why they decided to change that strategy and even give Rosberg the chance to challenge for the win. Either there was some ulterior motive at play, or it was sheer incompetence. Either way, it shouldn't have happened.

And I also stand by my earlier point:
Why the used soft tires vs new super-softs that Rosberg had? With the rain in Q3 and the fact that they had done similar runs during all sessions, there should have been an equal tire to Rosbergs. I.e. a brand-new soft tire to go against a brand-new set of the SS Rosberg had left over (by the fact that he had allocated one more). There should have also been at least a set of new US left in that garage, given they only did one run on them in Q3 (after the track dried out).
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Roman
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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I dont want to go through 20 pages of fanboy ying-yang so can anybody tell me if the issue that Ham potentially passed under yellows was discussed here? I thought I had seen a yellow flag while watching but I couldnt really read anything about that.

zac510
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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Andres125sx wrote: Anycase I wonder how current F1 would be with proper tires that don´t explode, that might be used to the limits for a decent percentage of their use, and can be used at normal pressures. Current F1 tires are a joke. Maybe F1 would not need new aero rules to improve cars pace and the show if tires would be performing as F1 tires should perform
I don't know if you're new to F1 or not, but F1 has never had a perfect tyre. Whenever we had control tyres, like Goodyear or Bridgestone in the late 90s, the drivers and teams complained that they were just rocks and they could go 5 seconds faster.
When Bridgestone joined F1, their tyre was so much better than the Goodyear, it was like the Mercedes engine vs the rest in 2014 and Goodyear quit.
Then when we had Bridgestone vs Michelin, people just complained that Ferrari had an unfair advantage with their exclusive Bridgestone deal (custom tyres) aided by in-season testing.
If you go beyond 25 years, the tyres were even more inconsistent, one set was great and next one was average - the quality control was not like we expect today (more complaints).

Furthermore, if the tyres were predictable then that would be a bit boring :) We need a bit of randomness in a race, it's the equivalent of a sprinkling of rain.

Jef Patat
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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sosic2121 wrote:
Godius wrote:Max overtaking Ricciardo into turn 9

https://twitter.com/roelfaasen/status/7 ... 7583988736
looks like illegal overtake. all 4 wheels off the track
That's what I was thinking as well.

morefirejules08
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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zac510 wrote:
Andres125sx wrote: Anycase I wonder how current F1 would be with proper tires that don´t explode, that might be used to the limits for a decent percentage of their use, and can be used at normal pressures. Current F1 tires are a joke. Maybe F1 would not need new aero rules to improve cars pace and the show if tires would be performing as F1 tires should perform


I don't know if you're new to F1 or not, but F1 has never had a perfect tyre. Whenever we had control tyres, like Goodyear or Bridgestone in the late 90s, the drivers and teams complained that they were just rocks and they could go 5 seconds faster.
When Bridgestone joined F1, their tyre was so much better than the Goodyear, it was like the Mercedes engine vs the rest in 2014 and Goodyear quit.
Then when we had Bridgestone vs Michelin, people just complained that Ferrari had an unfair advantage with their exclusive Bridgestone deal (custom tyres) aided by in-season testing.
If you go beyond 25 years, the tyres were even more inconsistent, one set was great and next one was average - the quality control was not like we expect today (more complaints).

Furthermore, if the tyres were predictable then that would be a bit boring :) We need a bit of randomness in a race, it's the equivalent of a sprinkling of rain.
I'm not sure exploding tyres equates to a sprinkling of rain

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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zac510 wrote:
Andres125sx wrote: Anycase I wonder how current F1 would be with proper tires that don´t explode, that might be used to the limits for a decent percentage of their use, and can be used at normal pressures. Current F1 tires are a joke. Maybe F1 would not need new aero rules to improve cars pace and the show if tires would be performing as F1 tires should perform
I don't know if you're new to F1 or not, but F1 has never had a perfect tyre. Whenever we had control tyres, like Goodyear or Bridgestone in the late 90s, the drivers and teams complained that they were just rocks and they could go 5 seconds faster.
When Bridgestone joined F1, their tyre was so much better than the Goodyear, it was like the Mercedes engine vs the rest in 2014 and Goodyear quit.
Then when we had Bridgestone vs Michelin, people just complained that Ferrari had an unfair advantage with their exclusive Bridgestone deal (custom tyres) aided by in-season testing.
If you go beyond 25 years, the tyres were even more inconsistent, one set was great and next one was average - the quality control was not like we expect today (more complaints).

Furthermore, if the tyres were predictable then that would be a bit boring :) We need a bit of randomness in a race, it's the equivalent of a sprinkling of rain.
Then let´s agree to disagree, as to me randomness should not be expected from any properly engineered F1 part