2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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komninosm
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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Schuttelberg wrote:Thanks mate! I agree with everything you said. For me, the major issue is the safety. Vettel's post race brief was clearly that of someone who was being 'told what to say' while his outpour at Spa last year, was more himself. One of these days someone is going to pay a major price for this farce and then, these idiots will do something about it.
Can't they put a hard tire beneath the soft tire exterior so this explosion thing doesn't happen and the pace drop-offs a lot?

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Juzh
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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komninosm wrote:
Schuttelberg wrote:Thanks mate! I agree with everything you said. For me, the major issue is the safety. Vettel's post race brief was clearly that of someone who was being 'told what to say' while his outpour at Spa last year, was more himself. One of these days someone is going to pay a major price for this farce and then, these idiots will do something about it.
Can't they put a hard tire beneath the soft tire exterior so this explosion thing doesn't happen and the pace drop-offs a lot?
Seems not. Expected from incompetent pirelli.

Gothrek
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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Has there ever been in history a tire manufacturer with this many tire explosions on straights? I am really wondering if there ever was a worse company in F1 with the responsibility of the tires...
Again and again they prove incompetent, yet they stay in place. This, for me, is also a part of the problem in F1.

zac510
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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komninosm wrote: Can't they put a hard tire beneath the soft tire exterior so this explosion thing doesn't happen and the pace drop-offs a lot?
I don't think creating a tyre is that easy. If they change the tyre half season like they did in 2013 it's going to favour some teams like it did for RBR in 2013. As it is we've had stable construction and rubber for quite a while now and we're getting good results from the tyres really. Aside from debris-induced punctures, what other outright failures have there been this year?

I get the distinct impression that the higher pressure, camber limits, etc are to protect Pirelli's image which is damaged by the complaints of drivers. They're trying to make the tyres more durable but without changing the structure or compound, which is fairer for everyone. My implication is that if the drivers were more pragmatic about the tyres and accepted a tyre instability as part of racing (like an PU failure or being punted off the track), then Pirelli might be inclined to give them far more freedom to use the tyres as they please.

Without sounding like I'm defending them, Pirelli are between a rock and an ultra-hard tyre and I don't envy them.

zac510
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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Gothrek wrote:Has there ever been in history a tire manufacturer with this many tire explosions on straights? I am really wondering if there ever was a worse company in F1 with the responsibility of the tires...
Again and again they prove incompetent, yet they stay in place. This, for me, is also a part of the problem in F1.
How many failures have there actually been, that are not caused by debris? I can only think of 1 at Austria and 2 at Spa last year (edit: in the last couple of seasons).
20+ years ago tyre failures happened much more frequently and decided championships (see 1986 adelaide).

I would really love to see the data. We are a technical forum, we really should make decisions like this based on data rather than knee-jerk blaming when your favourite driver suffered a failure.
Last edited by zac510 on 05 Jul 2016, 12:17, edited 1 time in total.

zeph
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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Q: who other than Vettel has had tire blowouts during the race in the last three seasons ('14-'16)?

Just want to get an idea. I remember Vettel in Spa last year and again last weekend, but nothing else comes to mind.

edit:

Of course Pirelli can make durable tires. But they are instructed to make these compounds for better entertainment.

sosic2121
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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komninosm wrote: Can't they put a hard tire beneath the soft tire exterior so this explosion thing doesn't happen and the pace drop-offs a lot?
This!

if there were 2 tire manufacturers I could understand, but these tires are just crap.

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Juzh
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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zeph wrote:Q: who other than Vettel has had tire blowouts during the race in the last three seasons ('14-'16)?

Just want to get an idea. I remember Vettel in Spa last year and again last weekend, but nothing else comes to mind.

edit:

Of course Pirelli can make durable tires. But they are instructed to make these compounds for better entertainment.
Rosberg in spa last year.
Tires ARE durable. Ultra soft 26 for hamilton. Stop this BS arguments. Tires are just plain crap and lack structural integrity.

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WaikeCU
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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What about kerb riding? Maybe too aggressive kerb riding can cause tire damage?

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F1NAC
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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WaikeCU wrote:What about kerb riding? Maybe too aggressive kerb riding can cause tire damage?
it would make sense that rear left tyre failed, but it didn't. Right tyre failed which is not as much under pressure as left I think

miguelalvesreis
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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bhall II wrote:
sAx wrote:"...I went deep to keep him outside a little bit.."! #FromTheHorsesMouth
"When you are on the outside you have to expect that. It's tough for sure, but this is not a friendly game of chess..."

~ Lewis Hamilton, Suzuka 2015
I'm amazed with the amount of people that think that Lewis was a saint in this crash!
The only difference is that Lewis is way smarter putting this kind of pressure. Much more subtle. We've seen in the same race the same happening with other drivers (from memory, Sainz) and there was no contact.

Bottas vs Kimi last year was worse than this and I can't remember so many people being so harsh on him! It's not like it was a Maldonado stunt

If Lewis was put in that position with Ric, Vet or Max would he turn in like he did? Very much doubt it! He turned in because it was Ros and for him Ros is predictable. Always go for a deep bluff with no cards in hand and quits when called to see

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Phil
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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For everyone who has never actually a driven a car on a track and attempted to go into a corner at the highest possible speed (e.g. while racing):

Corner exit: The line of the car is dictated by the velocity, the amount of grip and the geometry (radius) of the corner. Attempting to turn in tighter will result in loss of grip, possibly the rear breaking out in the direction you are turning. E.g. turning right and the car will go into oversteer right. Abruptly going off throttle or even braking will result in the same, as it will unsettle the car due to the load of the car changing. In such a corner, the load is on the outside, deceleration will cause load to shift forward meaning less grip on the rear which can result in loss of control and oversteer.

The higher the speed, the higher the loads, the higher the risk of this happening. This will lead to the effect that every car will go towards the outside of a corner on corner exit; thus the "closing gap" for anyone who is on the outside. Being on the inside also has the advantage of covering less distance. At the same speed, the car on the inside will move ahead. I expect a car on the inside, assuming it is slightly ahead, to take that advantage. The onus to 'back' out is usually on the car behind, also because he is in the others blind spot. Respect can be given to the point one can, as dictated by the laws of physics and how committed one is to the corner and the speed one is carrying.

Image

Illustration: Rosberg slightly behind on the outside. Hamilton on the right, slightly ahead on the inside.


This does not apply to corner entry, especially not at a slow corner dictated entirely by mechanical grip!

The problem here is not that Rosberg was carried "outside", it was all about when to turn in. He made a conscious decision to NOT turn in for as long as possible and force Hamilton off the track. Hamilton being slightly ahead, couldn't see Rosberg and assumed he was going to take the corner, hence why a collision happened. On corner entry (not the same as corner-exit), one is bringing the car to the lowest speed of the corner and at that point can decide to choose to steer left, right, go straight without the risk of the rear breaking traction.

If Rosberg had turned in, but gone straight (as a result of no traction), then the collision would have had an entirely different meaning. Then it would have been classed as an unfortunate racing incident because the point could be made that he simply went in too fast and was a by-passenger. He got a penalty because his conscious decision to not attempt to turn in caused the collision that happened.

Again, on corner exit; If Hamilton in Suzuka had decided to wave past Rosberg and concede the position, he might have lifted or turned in harder, but likely caused a loss of control and ultimately taking them both out in the process.


If I was a F1 steward, the telemetry of every single incident would be important to judge how much a driver had control of the situation that caused an incident. I.e. if a driver consciously pushes a car off the track while having reserves (e.g. not driving at the limit, therefore having some level of control over where to point his car, how much steering lock and how much room one leaves for the other), he would be punished for dangerous and disrespectful driving. This applies to drivers on the inside as well as the outside of a corner. I would independently judge which driver was in which position and how much onus was on either to avoid contact. I am assuming the F1 stewards do this, but having seen similar collisions being judged differently, I would assume not always all telemetry is taken into account or is available when taking action.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

Gothrek
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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zeph wrote:Q: who other than Vettel has had tire blowouts during the race in the last three seasons ('14-'16)?

Just want to get an idea. I remember Vettel in Spa last year and again last weekend, but nothing else comes to mind.

edit:

Of course Pirelli can make durable tires. But they are instructed to make these compounds for better entertainment.
Silverstone 2013? Or the whole first half of 2013 was a disaster.
For sure they can make durable tires. But this is about tires with good structural integrety. As discussed by Ferrari they couldn't see any performance problems for the tires. Pressures normal, laptime the same as the lap before. And then, all of a sudden the tire explodes. Do you think this is normal? The tire also exploded on a straight, not in a corner when forces would be highest. This is the just the way the tire is build.

Would be funny that is was caused by the high pressures Pirelli subcribes. Never in history has a tire manufacturer had so much influence on how teams have to use the tires. There are restrictions on camber, pressures, etc. And still they explode...
How sad is this?
I this would have happened to Hamilton on his ultrasofts, everybody would rage and cry rivers. Now it is "just" Vettel. But it doesn't hide the fact that there is a problem with these tires...

Be afraid for 2017, be very afraid... The cars will be faster and put more load on the tires. Let's just hope everybody survives next season.

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djos
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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Wow, I can't believe ppl are defending Britney, amazing when even his own team have leveled full responsibility on him!

* Golf clap *
"In downforce we trust"

3jawchuck
3jawchuck
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Re: 2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

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Vettel's tyre failure could have been an isolated manufacturing error, something not entirely unexpected every now and then in any run of products, especially ones mace by hand. Not to say this is acceptable.
Hopefully some data was acquirable to prevent whatever it was happening again.