2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

[Jolle]

I don't think they get all have to have the same engine maps that could be why they get more out of their engine plus their engine is designed for their chassis. It could be that in a certain configuration you can exert more power. Do they all get the same fuel and lubricants probably not

How can Mercedes use more downforce and still top the speed trap is their aero that efficient. A lot of people would disagree....

I believe mercedes (from day one) run their engine in some special way.
Is any other mercedes powered team running water intercooler?
also mercedes engine is less reliable then Williams, FI or Manor. I don't think that's an accident.

ric's pole in Monaco is a proof that merc chassis is not so special.

I believe that 0.5s gap that merc has in Q since ever is much bigger but they're sandbagging.

About fuel, afaik, they have same supplier, but that means nothing.

one more thing I noticed, half way down the straights mercedes speed advantage is huge, but at the end of the straights other teams are often little faster. all points to more power and much more DF/drag...

I don't really agree with you, the Williams and Force India haven't had the same rate of development since 2014 then the works teams. With Sauber and Renault you can really see what a not-really-developed chassis without a Mercedes engine will do.

Monaco is a bit of an odd one out. I imagine, when you design a car, you take a sweetspot of DF where you try to optimize drag vs DF levels. Everything else is a compromise. Williams designed their car for Silverstone it seems, therefore they are comprising most other tracks. RedBull seems te designed their car around a high downforce setup, why they did reletive badly at Baku. Mercedes looks like to have something in the middle, but it's so advances that in compromised setup, they still beat teams that are in their sweetspot, Monaco (not helped with Hamiltons issues and Rosberg's lack of confidence) as one of three exeptions in the last 2 ½ years.

That the advantage of .5 came down the last few GP's: wet track and no one to challenge Rosberg at Baku.

[TAG]

Plus the French bid was with modern low profile tires and we know how much modern stuff is hated within the F1 community.

13" wheels sound so much better than 18" wheels.

[sosic2121]

I don't really agree with you, the Williams and Force India haven't had the same rate of development since 2014 then the works teams. With Sauber and Renault you can really see what a not-really-developed chassis without a Mercedes engine will do.

Monaco is a bit of an odd one out. I imagine, when you design a car, you take a sweetspot of DF where you try to optimize drag vs DF levels. Everything else is a compromise. Williams designed their car for Silverstone it seems, therefore they are comprising most other tracks. RedBull seems te designed their car around a high downforce setup, why they did reletive badly at Baku. Mercedes looks like to have something in the middle, but it's so advances that in compromised setup, they still beat teams that are in their sweetspot, Monaco (not helped with Hamiltons issues and Rosberg's lack of confidence) as one of three exeptions in the last 2 ½ years.

That the advantage of .5 came down the last few GP's: wet track and no one to challenge Rosberg at Baku.

you are right about Williams development, and I expected that. but I still believe they were underachieving(compered to Mercedes) during last to seasons. if remember correctly, massa actually said that they don't have same engine. FI is hard to predict
while Monaco is an odd one, there has been a trend of the gap shrinking on slow high DF tracks like Hungary where Ferrari is MAYBE equal to Mercedes with weaker engine.
I think mercedes has similar max DF to Ferrari, and less than RB, but on most tracks can run more wings due to power advantage.
I will try to find some speeds from 2 speedtraps on the same straight. smaller delta for merc would point to higher DF...

[Jolle]

I don't really agree with you, the Williams and Force India haven't had the same rate of development since 2014 then the works teams. With Sauber and Renault you can really see what a not-really-developed chassis without a Mercedes engine will do.

Monaco is a bit of an odd one out. I imagine, when you design a car, you take a sweetspot of DF where you try to optimize drag vs DF levels. Everything else is a compromise. Williams designed their car for Silverstone it seems, therefore they are comprising most other tracks. RedBull seems te designed their car around a high downforce setup, why they did reletive badly at Baku. Mercedes looks like to have something in the middle, but it's so advances that in compromised setup, they still beat teams that are in their sweetspot, Monaco (not helped with Hamiltons issues and Rosberg's lack of confidence) as one of three exeptions in the last 2 ½ years.

That the advantage of .5 came down the last few GP's: wet track and no one to challenge Rosberg at Baku.

you are right about Williams development, and I expected that. but I still believe they were underachieving(compered to Mercedes) during last to seasons. if remember correctly, massa actually said that they don't have same engine. FI is hard to predict
while Monaco is an odd one, there has been a trend of the gap shrinking on slow high DF tracks like Hungary where Ferrari is MAYBE equal to Mercedes with weaker engine.
I think mercedes has similar max DF to Ferrari, and less than RB, but on most tracks can run more wings due to power advantage.
I will try to find some speeds from 2 speedtraps on the same straight. smaller delta for merc would point to higher DF...

They have the same engine, just sometimes they are one development behind for a few GP's (like Monza last year). Under the current rules it isn't allowed (with a special dispensation for Ferrari-STR) to have different specs of engines.

[mrluke]

I don't think they get all have to have the same engine maps that could be why they get more out of their engine plus their engine is designed for their chassis. It could be that in a certain configuration you can exert more power. Do they all get the same fuel and lubricants probably not

How can Mercedes use more downforce and still top the speed trap is their aero that efficient. A lot of people would disagree....

I dont think there is any mileage in this at all.

Mercedes PU is no different to other teams supplied by them.

The only difference is that they offer different price points on their PU. Lowest cost is you buy the seasons supply based on the first PU designed raced. With the highest cost being you get the benefit of every single update as soon as it is available.

You will also find the poorer teams trying to use as few PU components as possible so they dont have to buy new ones whereas the works teams only care about not having penalties.

For further evidence look at Mercedes 2013 season. The car was awesome in qualy but was hard on its tyres. The team spend a whole season understanding the tyres and from 2014 onwards are able to unlock the pace that was obvious in the previous season. Merc are not a one trick pony.

[Jolle]

I don't think they get all have to have the same engine maps that could be why they get more out of their engine plus their engine is designed for their chassis. It could be that in a certain configuration you can exert more power. Do they all get the same fuel and lubricants probably not

How can Mercedes use more downforce and still top the speed trap is their aero that efficient. A lot of people would disagree....

I dont think there is any mileage in this at all.

Mercedes PU is no different to other teams supplied by them.

The only difference is that they offer different price points on their PU. Lowest cost is you buy the seasons supply based on the first PU designed raced. With the highest cost being you get the benefit of every single update as soon as it is available.

You will also find the poorer teams trying to use as few PU components as possible so they dont have to buy new ones whereas the works teams only care about not having penalties.

For further evidence look at Mercedes 2013 season. The car was awesome in qualy but was hard on its tyres. The team spend a whole season understanding the tyres and from 2014 onwards are able to unlock the pace that was obvious in the previous season. Merc are not a one trick pony.

Indeed.
I suspect that some people are confused about the amount of downforce in the way you describe it.
Putting an amount of downforce is no problem for any team, you just put the wings in a different position. It's the amount of drag thats important. The Mercedes car is even with a considerable amount of downforce relative low drag.

[flickerf1]

2016 Austria - Onboard Highlights: https://vimeo.com/173717899?ref=tw-share

[NL_Fer]

Downforce with low (relative) low drag does not come from the wings, it is embedded in the chassis design. The RB has allot of this efficient downforce, but to since it it in the chassis, you cannot remove like flattening the wings. So on a low downforce track cannot run as low drag like Williams.

Williams is the opposite low drag, low downforce. On a track like Monaco they cannot get enough downforce as needed and at maximum downforce, drag is much higher than Redbull.

Mercedes chassis is great, it was already the fastest car in 2013 with the V8 which was good, but the difference was not that great as in the Turbo era. But in 2014 they seemed to have fixed the 2013 high degradation, on prime (tyres) they are unbeatable.

[NYGIANTS]

Austria Onboards: https://vimeo.com/173717899

[giantfan10]

I don't think they get all have to have the same engine maps that could be why they get more out of their engine plus their engine is designed for their chassis. It could be that in a certain configuration you can exert more power. Do they all get the same fuel and lubricants probably not

How can Mercedes use more downforce and still top the speed trap is their aero that efficient. A lot of people would disagree....

I dont think there is any mileage in this at all.

Mercedes PU is no different to other teams supplied by them.

The only difference is that they offer different price points on their PU. Lowest cost is you buy the seasons supply based on the first PU designed raced. With the highest cost being you get the benefit of every single update as soon as it is available.

You will also find the poorer teams trying to use as few PU components as possible so they dont have to buy new ones whereas the works teams only care about not having penalties.

For further evidence look at Mercedes 2013 season. The car was awesome in qualy but was hard on its tyres. The team spend a whole season understanding the tyres and from 2014 onwards are able to unlock the pace that was obvious in the previous season. Merc are not a one trick pony.

Yes the physical engines are identical per FIA regulations... engine mapping and fuels are not regulated by the FIA and engine mapping is where the manufacturing teams are at an advantage over customer teams.
Some prefer to stick their heads in the sand and chalk up mercedes advantage over other mercedes engined cars as some mythical low drag downforce that no other team knows about and can duplicate.
The truth of the matter is that Mercedes and Ferrari with these current rules will NEVER be behind their customer teams.
The fact that the manufacturer teams also have the money to develop the aero on their cars at will doesnt help the situation either.
This is from Formula 1.com :
Although the new rule prevents manufacturers like Mercedes or Ferrari supplying customer teams with different specifications of engines, it does not preclude the possibility of them using different software mapping or fuel products.
However, it is also possible that the Sporting Regulations could yet be changed, but only "with the unanimous agreement of all competitors entered in the 2016 championship"

Do you think Mercedes or Ferrari will EVER agree to that rule being implemented? Not a chance there will ever be unanimous agreement on that rule.

[mrluke]

The reason this rule has struggled to get through is because some teams are running last years PU for budget reasons. This rule bans that thereby making the PU more expensive for the lower teams.

The Renault works team is being soundly beaten by their customer team.

I am sure we have seen Ferrari beaten by STR at some GPs this year.

There is nothing mythical about the Mercedes car. They started work on it 2-3 years before anybody else even looked at the regs, they are delivering the full package, there isnt a single magic bullet its just everything.

[ClarkBT11]

I don't think they get all have to have the same engine maps that could be why they get more out of their engine plus their engine is designed for their chassis. It could be that in a certain configuration you can exert more power. Do they all get the same fuel and lubricants probably not

How can Mercedes use more downforce and still top the speed trap is their aero that efficient. A lot of people would disagree....

I dont think there is any mileage in this at all.

Mercedes PU is no different to other teams supplied by them.

The only difference is that they offer different price points on their PU. Lowest cost is you buy the seasons supply based on the first PU designed raced. With the highest cost being you get the benefit of every single update as soon as it is available.

You will also find the poorer teams trying to use as few PU components as possible so they dont have to buy new ones whereas the works teams only care about not having penalties.

For further evidence look at Mercedes 2013 season. The car was awesome in qualy but was hard on its tyres. The team spend a whole season understanding the tyres and from 2014 onwards are able to unlock the pace that was obvious in the previous season. Merc are not a one trick pony.

Yes the physical engines are identical per FIA regulations... engine mapping and fuels are not regulated by the FIA and engine mapping is where the manufacturing teams are at an advantage over customer teams.
Some prefer to stick their heads in the sand and chalk up mercedes advantage over other mercedes engined cars as some mythical low drag downforce that no other team knows about and can duplicate.
The truth of the matter is that Mercedes and Ferrari with these current rules will NEVER be behind their customer teams.
The fact that the manufacturer teams also have the money to develop the aero on their cars at will doesnt help the situation either.
This is from Formula 1.com :
Although the new rule prevents manufacturers like Mercedes or Ferrari supplying customer teams with different specifications of engines, it does not preclude the possibility of them using different software mapping or fuel products.
However, it is also possible that the Sporting Regulations could yet be changed, but only "with the unanimous agreement of all competitors entered in the 2016 championship"

Do you think Mercedes or Ferrari will EVER agree to that rule being implemented? Not a chance there will ever be unanimous agreement on that rule.

Standardising electronics in different series have levelled the playing field. In Moto GP a second can cover the top ten.
Formula 1 teams aren't interested in the good of the sport only for there own agendas for their marketing.
But your can't blame them, poring millions into their programmes you would want an edge on the competition.
I would say "go make your own engines if you want to be on the same level as a works team"which asks the question should there be a works championship and a separate customer championship.

The reason this rule has struggled to get through is because some teams are running last years PU for budget reasons. This rule bans that thereby making the PU more expensive for the lower teams.

The Renault works team is being soundly beaten by their customer team.

I am sure we have seen Ferrari beaten by STR at some GPs this year.

There is nothing mythical about the Mercedes car. They started work on it 2-3 years before anybody else even looked at the regs, they are delivering the full package, there isnt a single magic bullet its just everything.

I agree Mrluke Mercedes isn't a one trick pony. They have excelled in every area apart from the occasional blunder from the pit wall.

We were only discussing the differences in customer vs works Mercedes engines

[sosic2121]

Downforce with low (relative) low drag does not come from the wings, it is embedded in the chassis design. The RB has allot of this efficient downforce, but to since it it in the chassis, you cannot remove like flattening the wings. So on a low downforce track cannot run as low drag like Williams.

Williams is the opposite low drag, low downforce. On a track like Monaco they cannot get enough downforce as needed and at maximum downforce, drag is much higher than Redbull.

Mercedes chassis is great, it was already the fastest car in 2013 with the V8 which was good, but the difference was not that great as in the Turbo era. But in 2014 they seemed to have fixed the 2013 high degradation, on prime (tyres) they are unbeatable.

Maybe mercedes 2013 tire issues are over because they can haul more DF. they are almost always running monkey seat, which is there to prevent too steep rear wing from stalling.
I agree about rb. with it's agresive rake whole car is one giant diffuser
diffusers are efficient, monkey seats are not...

[giantfan10]

The reason this rule has struggled to get through is because some teams are running last years PU for budget reasons. This rule bans that thereby making the PU more expensive for the lower teams.

The Renault works team is being soundly beaten by their customer team.

I am sure we have seen Ferrari beaten by STR at some GPs this year.

There is nothing mythical about the Mercedes car. They started work on it 2-3 years before anybody else even looked at the regs, they are delivering the full package, there isnt a single magic bullet its just everything.

the renault works team is behind red bull because of a susbtandard car which was designed for a mercedes engine.. secondly red bull negotiated with renault for works status and thats why things are the way they are.
point me to the race this year that STR finished ahead of Ferrari on pace....in fact point me to any race this year where a merc powered car or a Ferrari powered car finished ahead of the manufacturer team on pure pace....

[Jolle]

Which isn't strange, the works teams budget is around five to ten times that of the customer teams on chassis/aero development.