2017 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 27-29 October

[komninosm]

Remember when Hamilton hit Massa a few years back and caused him a flat tire? Hamilton was punished then (and same thing every other similar incident for every set of drivers except maybe teammates).

Remember when Vettel T-boned Button's car and then continued but received a penalty? Red Bull back then, not Ferrari.

Remember when Hamilton "illegaly" passed RAI and then gave position back and then overtook him again after the next turn? They penalized Hamilton for that too. And changed the rulebook after the fact. (Usually they change it before giving penalties, like the "Verstappen defense rule")

Why only FIARRARI escape punishment in your view?

Remember when we had engines in the front, no seatbells and haystacks as barriers?

Past rulings are not applied anymore. We had a clear push the last couple of years where stewards have to be more lenients towards these situations. That's what is going on. All these situations you mentioned, apply them in the present and they will not be punished.

I am not denying the steward decisions somewhat benefited Ferrari. However, situational benefit is one thing, straightforward prefering a particular team is another thing. I think you are blowing that part out of proportion.

Btw, is it just me or is the fiarrari meme getting really old -.-? Common, I did the effort of giving a serious and well thought answer. The least you can do is return the curtosy by putting emotions aside.

You're talking about 50 years ago, I'm talking about last decade. I think the Massa incident was in 2015 even. They've punished people for crashing into other cars this year too, and last year also. Only Vettel+Ferrari always escapes.

I'm not saying that they are FIA+Ferrari dictators, but there's some obvious collusion going on and it hurts the sport.
Does Ferrari still get more money from FIA than any other team even above them in constructor's championship? Why? I think F1 would be better with a diminished Ferrari influence and they can suck it.

Also remember the old saying: "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion"
It's not enough that FIA is innocent, they must also appear innocent. This was a good opportunity and they missed it. The championship was over realistically. They could get their heads out of their asses an punish Vettel and say "see? we're fair" and all that. But they failed. Again.
FIARRARI isn't a meme. It's the factual truth at this point as far as everyone is concerned. Except the Ferrari Fanatics that they chose to placate instead/again.
But if it bothers you I will stop using it. I will refer it to "FIA+Ferrari collusion" from now on. Is that really any better?

PS: I do not think Vettel planned to hit Hamilton. He just pushed too much and failed. Still warrants a penalty though by the current rules. I'm glad you agree with the apology. Acting like Baku didn't happen really hurt people's thoughts. Some would come out and say "that's how men are supposed to drive" and silly things like that. Ferrari would get a lot less hate if they start behaving magnanimously. It's a win -win for everyone.

[turbof1]

You're talking about 50 years ago, I'm talking about last decade. I think the Massa incident was in 2015 even. They've punished people for crashing into other cars this year too, and last year also. Only Vettel+Ferrari always escapes.

I'm not saying that they are FIA+Ferrari dictators, but there's some obvious collusion going on and it hurts the sport.
Does Ferrari still get more money from FIA than any other team even above them in constructor's championship? Why? I think F1 would be better with a diminished Ferrari influence and they can suck it.

Also remember the old saying: "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion"
It's not enough that FIA is innocent, they must also appear innocent. This was a good opportunity and they missed it. The championship was over realistically. They could get their heads out of their asses an punish Vettel and say "see? we're fair" and all that. But they failed. Again.
FIARRARI isn't a meme. It's the factual truth at this point as far as everyone is concerned. Except the Ferrari Fanatics that they chose to placate instead/again.
But if it bothers you I will stop using it. I will refer it to "FIA+Ferrari collusion" from now on. Is that really any better?

PS: I do not think Vettel planned to hit Hamilton. He just pushed too much and failed. Still warrants a penalty though by the current rules. I'm glad you agree with the apology. Acting like Baku didn't happen really hurt people's thoughts. Some would come out and say "that's how men are supposed to drive" and silly things like that. Ferrari would get a lot less hate if they start behaving magnanimously. It's a win -win for everyone.

I'm just saying: the penalties on the named situations are not applicable anymore. The sport has made a major swing in that department, and things that happened 2 years ago have become in some aspects as relevant as haystacks, front engines and no seatbelts.

Regarding the FIA/Ferrari collusion, you can call it whatever you want, including the meme, just try to use it more sensible. Message for everyone. I feel this is neither the topic for discussing that subject. If you want a discussion about that, feel free to start a thread about (explicitly asking to keep sentiment out of the equation and sticking to facts that happened throughout history).

[strad]

It was better when they settled problems amongst themselves. A couple a punch outs would clearly delineate what's acceptable and what's not.

[foxmulder_ms]

Guys... please don't be fanatics. It is not good. If one cannot see Vettel's intentionally hitting Hamilton, he is blinded by fanaticism. This is not supporting a sportsman, it is out right religion level blind belief

I hope that was sarcasm.

Absolutely not.

If you cannot see Vettel intentionally hitting Hamilton at Mexico, then there is almost nothing Vettel could do wrong in your eyes.

[turbof1]

Guys... please don't be fanatics. It is not good. If one cannot see Vettel's intentionally hitting Hamilton, he is blinded by fanaticism. This is not supporting a sportsman, it is out right religion level blind belief

I hope that was sarcasm.

Absolutely not.

If you cannot see Vettel intentionally hitting Hamilton, then there is almost nothing Vettel could do wrong in your eyes.

I'm just going to leave this here:


My eyes aren't atleast clouded by red mist. Does not mean for the record Vettel did nothing wrong; he was extremely clumsy. But there's a difference between being clumsy and intentially hitting somebody.

[foxmulder_ms]

Sure leave it here

seriously man, just fanaticism. Just watch it calmly at regular speed. You will see Vettel used his wing like a guided missile. He was not in an out of control car. 100% in control, very much aware of what he was doing.

[turbof1]

Sure leave it here

seriously man, just fanaticism. Just watch it calmly at regular speed. You will see Vettel used his wing like a guided missile. He was not in an out of control car. 100% in control, very much aware of what he was doing.

I think you accidently watched a Death Race movie . You are not even bothered to adress anything whatsoever the author of that video, an ex professional race driver and currently car and driver developer, had to say about Vettel clipping the kerb, destabilizing the car, which was obvious as Vettel was just swinging his steering left to right constantly. I'm sure you'll find this the Devil's master plan!

You know what is fanaticism? Ignoring reason and facts just to keep your own idea alive. Since you have nothing else to argue except accusing people for fanaticism in a very hypocritical way, I don't think we have anything to debate.

I will say this though: you are very much allowed to openly disagree with me. But, you are not allowed to insult people of fanaticism, especially not when they do an effort and you blatantly ignore it. Take that as a friendly warning.

[TAG]

My eyes aren't atleast clouded by red mist. Does not mean for the record Vettel did nothing wrong; he was extremely clumsy. But there's a difference between being clumsy and intentially hitting somebody.

The problem is that back in Baku people were claiming he was clumsy when he drove along side Hamilton and hit him. I don't disagree with you here, but you do something over and over again, eventually you're going to give someone the wrong impression.

[iotar__]

My eyes aren't atleast clouded by red mist. Does not mean for the record Vettel did nothing wrong; he was extremely clumsy. But there's a difference between being clumsy and intentially hitting somebody.

The problem is that back in Baku people were claiming he was clumsy when he drove along side Hamilton and hit him. I don't disagree with you here, but you do something over and over again, eventually you're going to give someone the wrong impression.

No, the problem is a nonsensical approach of not only comparing two completely different incidents but also using claims made about one of them as an argument for the other. Meaning: just because someone claimed Baku incident was not on purpose it does not make Mexico collision a premeditated action.

BTW couldn't you find less of a non-story to argue about? Except for turning anyone who competes with Hamilton into a pantomime villain (like Rosberg) while throwing a bone of clumsiness and benefit of a doubt of innocence as if the guilt was a default option I fail to see the purpose.

I'm more interested in what happened to Sainz, "high speed spin" and race over in the beginning of the race. Renault can't complain about consistency, he delivered exactly what his '17 season promised Canada, Baku, Suzuka, Mexico, in some way GB and (later in the race) Bahrain.

[Sierra117]

Wow, what a start by Stoffel

[foxmulder_ms]

Sure leave it here

seriously man, just fanaticism. Just watch it calmly at regular speed. You will see Vettel used his wing like a guided missile. He was not in an out of control car. 100% in control, very much aware of what he was doing.

I think you accidently watched a Death Race movie . You are not even bothered to adress anything whatsoever the author of that video, an ex professional race driver and currently car and driver developer, had to say about Vettel clipping the kerb, destabilizing the car, which was obvious as Vettel was just swinging his steering left to right constantly. I'm sure you'll find this the Devil's master plan!

You know what is fanaticism? Ignoring reason and facts just to keep your own idea alive. Since you have nothing else to argue except accusing people for fanaticism in a very hypocritical way, I don't think we have anything to debate.

I will say this though: you are very much allowed to openly disagree with me. But, you are not allowed to insult people of fanaticism, especially not when they do an effort and you blatantly ignore it. Take that as a friendly warning.

Thanks for letting me disagreeing. It was a moral boost. lol..

You think/believe it was not intentional because it looked like he was out of control of his car. After he made the 1st correction right after the bump he was in control. 2nd steering input is not a correction it is targeting. Listen the engine sound he hits him before even applying the accelerator! He is not sliding because of early/too much power application he is steering with an intent. Listen again and try to hear the engine acceleration off the corner. It is after mission accomplished.

Also at that point Seb has nothing to lose, he is already behind Ham. So, perfect motive there.

Anyhow,

so as Alonso said "I am losing the race here!!@!@!@! "

what was that? so funny!! irony in that radio!

[Just_a_fan]

It was better when they settled problems amongst themselves. A couple a punch outs would clearly delineate what's acceptable and what's not.

Yeeeessss...

[turbof1]

Sure leave it here

seriously man, just fanaticism. Just watch it calmly at regular speed. You will see Vettel used his wing like a guided missile. He was not in an out of control car. 100% in control, very much aware of what he was doing.

I think you accidently watched a Death Race movie . You are not even bothered to adress anything whatsoever the author of that video, an ex professional race driver and currently car and driver developer, had to say about Vettel clipping the kerb, destabilizing the car, which was obvious as Vettel was just swinging his steering left to right constantly. I'm sure you'll find this the Devil's master plan!

You know what is fanaticism? Ignoring reason and facts just to keep your own idea alive. Since you have nothing else to argue except accusing people for fanaticism in a very hypocritical way, I don't think we have anything to debate.

I will say this though: you are very much allowed to openly disagree with me. But, you are not allowed to insult people of fanaticism, especially not when they do an effort and you blatantly ignore it. Take that as a friendly warning.

Thanks for letting me disagreeing. It was a moral boost. lol..

You think/believe it was not intentional because it looked like he was out of control of his car. After he made the 1st correction right after the bump he was in control. 2nd steering input is not a correction it is targeting. Listen the engine sound he hits him before even applying the accelerator! He is not sliding because of early/too much power application he is steering with an intent. Listen again and try to hear the engine acceleration off the corner. It is after mission accomplished.

Also at that point Seb has nothing to lose, he is already behind Ham. So, perfect motive there.

Anyhow,

so as Alonso said "I am losing the race here!!@!@!@! "

what was that? so funny!! irony in that radio!

The real moral boost is that you are now debating the arguments, about what we can see and hear . Now we actual have a civil discussion!

I have to find better footage with better sound to get a better picture of the throttle input. I will get back to that.

However, you say he goes from being out of control, to the 1st correction and then targetting Hamilton's wheel. So essentially you are saying he goes from having to correct for oversteer to a conscious decision to hit Hamilton's tyre. The issue about that is we are talking about several actions taken on less than a second. You cannot get a conscious decision to hit someone less than half a second after you were busy correcting for oversteer. That means at "best" that Vettel hit Hamilton intentially on reflex and not on a full conscious level. I mean we have to be realistic here: either Vettel's brain has more processing power than a super computer and has such high speed nerve synapses a quantum computer would be jealous about, or he worked on reflex. I think we can agree on what it'll be.

[Sieper]

So as we are apparently agreeing on Vettel's innocence, by default that must then also mean that the same words used here in the argument, f.e. iotar calling it "nonsensical reasoning" apply to Hamilton as he had also asked about on team radio and later in interviews implied multiple times he thought Vettel did it on purpose.

Why is it that everytime a "dirty" action happens, almost nobody seems to want to confirm what actually went down? It has to be as clear as driving up next to somebody and then hitting him before (and even then) before it seems we can agree. About that incident I still feel Hamilton tricked Vettel in that corner. Either that or his reflexes are just as amiss as his quantum computer but then we are firmly in the bashing Vettel department are we not.

Also, I don't agree with people having the right to call others nonsensical, fanatical, fanboy etc. when they disagree.

[sosic2121]

And what is the situation with Max and Lewis crash? Who's the villain there?