2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

[Sieper]

Yes it's though when media hype made you believe you're driving god, yet after 35 laps your teammate is still in DRS range.

Very hard to get out of with the other DRS zone and you know it. He did get out of DRS though only to get stuck behind Hamilton and Ricci got back in DRS range again.

I thought it was hard to get in DRS.

Anyway, I don't blame only Max for the crash.
There are many things that led to this.
IMO FIA is 100% guilty, RB 80% and Max 50%.
As long this kind of driving continues Max will remain to be second rate driver. (spectacular moves don't count, points do!)
If Max such a huge talent that so many people believe he is, it would be in his interest to change the way he's driving.
Hype and rule bending did him no good in the long run.

I agree with most of what you say here actually, finally a more normal tone to discuss. Thank you, really. This for me is what f1technical should be.

On most circuits it indeed is hard to stay in DRS (will quickly cost you your tires due to low grip in the turbulance zone) but I think Baku is the exception to this rule. Not to say Ricci wasn’t driving good because he was.

I always believed in his talent and to me none of that is hype. Sure there always is a lot of controversy, but I think (next to Max indeed Triggering it himselve still sometimes) a lot is also stirred up by people with other interests. If it would have been Max in the Kimi Ocon crash, or Max in the Gasly Magnussen move, or Max in the grosjean Ericsson crash it would also have been a 20 page discussion just as well.

[Andres125sx]

And yet Dan got reprimanded too!

Historically, I think the stewards are less inclined to investigate incidents between team-mates. I can remember numerous instances, especially Hamilton/Rosberg that were not even investigated, and if they were, they were usually concluded with "no action required", a "reprimand" or something without any serious implication for either driver.

Yes, except McLaren 2007

[Andres125sx]

About the "Ricciardo move was too late" argument, sorry buy I can´t buy it


This is moving too late:


And this is a leading car moving in reaction to the chasing car, aka blocking: (can´t play it in F1T, must click to view in YT)



I agree they´re minor movements, but enough to block Ricciardo and cause a crash.

I think the difference if pretty clear

[J.A.W.]

Exactly right, Senna was never slow enough to find himself defending against others while in a front running car.

Wrong.

https://youtu.be/7ELMOuH1yLc

"Wrong"?

Wrong clip perhaps.. G-J..

Since, as James Hunt's remarks make plain, 'Senna stuck to the racing line', & he was 'predictable'..
Not comments which apply to Verstappen* - in the incident under discussion here..

*Except, judging by his DNF ratio this season, via erratic moves/crashing out - Max is getting 'predictable'..
(& not in a +ve way).

[djos]

Exactly right, Senna was never slow enough to find himself defending against others while in a front running car.

Maybe If Senna would have had the opportunity to do 35 laps in Baku with a 22 second straight and a DRS thrown in for the mix he could have tasted that sweet taste.

You clearly aren't old enough to remember the real Hockenheim or Monza before the chicanes or even imola! There was loads of drafting powered overtakes at these circuits in the late 80's and early 90's!

[djos]

Exactly right, Senna was never slow enough to find himself defending against others while in a front running car.

Wrong.

https://youtu.be/7ELMOuH1yLc

I'd forgotten about the Ford powered Maclaren, the diffirence between Senna and Max in your example is stark! Senna drives the fastest line possible, he never drives defensively!

[djos]

Maybe If Senna would have had the opportunity to do 35 laps in Baku with a 22 second straight and a DRS thrown in for the mix he could have tasted that sweet taste.

You clearly aren't old enough to remember the real Hockenheim or Monza before the chicanes or even imola! There was loads of drafting powered overtakes at these circuits in the late 80's and early 90's!

DRS???! Then?

Many of the cars with active suspension had a push to pass button that would lift the nose therefore reducing the angle of attack of the wings. This reduced drag and downforce for the entire car.

DRS is not a new concept, clearly if you were around for the senna prost era, you weren't paying attention!

[George-Jung]

Exactly right, Senna was never slow enough to find himself defending against others while in a front running car.

Wrong.

https://youtu.be/7ELMOuH1yLc

I'd forgotten about the Ford powered Maclaren, the diffirence between Senna and Max in your example is stark! Senna drives the fastest line possible, he never drives defensively!

How about Schumacher retires; Senna moves across, while Schumacher is besides him.

In a similar situation people would burn Verstappen, making this very same move- ‘just driving into people who are faster’.

[djos]

Wrong.

https://youtu.be/7ELMOuH1yLc

I'd forgotten about the Ford powered Maclaren, the diffirence between Senna and Max in your example is stark! Senna drives the fastest line possible, he never drives defensively!

How about Schumacher retires, because Senna moves across, while Schumacher is besides him.

Post a video again to refresh my memory, the last one was quite helpful.

PS, Senna was no Saint but as a general rule, the only driver who complained about him on a regular basis was Prost and it wasnt for dangerous blocking, it was for aggressive overtaking.

[George-Jung]

Post a video again to refresh my memory, the last one was quite helpful.

Senna defending with a front running car.

[djos]

Post a video again to refresh my memory, the last one was quite helpful.

https://youtu.be/Xt_57kGnQzQ

https://youtu.be/aO7sU956mIg

Senna defending with a front running car.

Ok, and again Senna drives the fastest possible line and shows respect for the other driver (Mansell) when he eventually makes his move, there's no excessive blocking, no attempts to push the other driver off the track, just no Max like moves whatsoever!

So thanks for proving my point that Senna was never dirty when defending!

[George-Jung]

Post a video again to refresh my memory, the last one was quite helpful.

https://youtu.be/Xt_57kGnQzQ

https://youtu.be/aO7sU956mIg

Senna defending with a front running car.

Ok, and again Senna drives the fastest possible line and shows respect for the other driver (Mansell) when he eventually makes his move, there's no excessive blocking, no attempts to push the other driver off the track, just no Max like moves whatsoever!

So thanks for proving my point that Senna was never dirty when defending!

Huh? you’re changing the subject; it was about:

Exactly right, Senna was never slow enough to find himself defending against others while in a front running car.

“Senna was never slow enough to find himself defending..”

That’s simply not true- as shown.

To finish this one off; Senna is taking defensive lines prior to being overtaken by Mansell in Spain..

[djos]

https://youtu.be/Xt_57kGnQzQ

https://youtu.be/aO7sU956mIg

Senna defending with a front running car.

Ok, and again Senna drives the fastest possible line and shows respect for the other driver (Mansell) when he eventually makes his move, there's no excessive blocking, no attempts to push the other driver off the track, just no Max like moves whatsoever!

So thanks for proving my point that Senna was never dirty when defending!

Huh? you’re changing the subject; it was about:

Exactly right, Senna was never slow enough to find himself defending against others while in a front running car.

“Senna was never slow enough to find himself defending..”

That’s simply not true- as shown.

To finish this one off; Senna is taking defensive lines prior to being overtaken by Mansell in Spain..

I admitted I'd forgotten about the Ford powered Maclaren season too, so no point going on about it.

The irony is that by me being wrong about senna defending in a front running car, you and others have proven the point that senna's behaviour was nothing like Max.

[George-Jung]

You are allowed to go back or move towards the racing line in order to make the turn.

If your original position was the racing line, and then you move offline for the 1st defensive move, then and only then with extreme caution and always leaving enough space if you have a car besides you, you are allowed to go towards the racing line again in order to make the turn.

Wrong, false and incorrect.

“To make a turn” has absolutely nothing to do with it- nothing.

Ok, so this gets a -2...

Please show me where it is written that you are allowed to move back in order to make the turn.

There is non- otherwise it is not applicable for straights as well, which it is.

[flmkane]

Man this thread is gonna give me brain cancer. So much subjective madness.

Senna DID go off the line to defend, but not the same way certain people do it today. By modern standards he was much more respectful. Thus, it's not that Senna was a safe driver (he wasn't, he was the king of d***heads). Rather, it is that modern standards have gotten very very dangerous, facilitated by the much safer cars.

Simply put, Senna wasn't driving to kill other drivers.

He WAS however, a total jerk.



Max is gonna get someone killed if he keeps doing his dance.
And I said the same thing about Hamilton back in 2011. And I've been a Ham fan since his first qualifying session.