2018 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 27-29 July

[Sierra117]

So what I don't understand is - hot temps the Mercs are overheating their tires? because they put more energy in to them than Ferrari does. But what EXACTLY does that even mean? It's not a matter of weight right? I mean Mercedes wouldn't want the car to be heavy like a Nissan GT-R cause that would be detrimental to the car's overall performance so weight is not the reason why the Merc drives the tires hard. Is it suspension setup? As in much more stiffer in general because they don't run the rake like Ferrari and Red Bull do? Less downforce overall so they have to have more camber? I am trying to understand here. What do you guys think is the reason?

Yes, the no-rake design and harder suspension means less travel to take care of bumps and this and that, which means traction isn't quite there, which means tyres slide more, which means overheating and blistering.

[LM10]

Because every tom, dick and harry can win in dry, including a Maldonado. When it rains, the same mortals end up in barriers and it's easy to know throughout the modern history, who have consistently won in wet conditions. The Senna, The Schumacher and The Hamilton. It's that simple.

What an extremely arrogant way to write. And on the top, it's ignorant.

"Because every tom, dick and harry can win in dry,.." - So then I guess Hamilton wasn't one of the toms, dicks and harrys when he was lacking performance and couldn't manage to control his car in FP1-FP3 compared to his team mate? Just a little example.

Are there points for FP1s and FP3s. Why not talk about most poles and wins? How many toms, dicks and harrys have that?

Well, the toms, dicks and harrys have not had the comfort of having been in the, by far, fastest car for several years. Hamilton's only opponent has been his team mate for 3 years straight starting from 2014. Also Maldonado, who you mentioned, would have been at least 2nd in the WDC list at the end of the season in such a superior car.

I know Hamilton is an amazing driver, but I feel the strong need to put things into perspective every time I read the praising posts towards Hamilton which (it's just a personal notice) are written most compared to other drivers when they win something.

[LM10]

What an extremely arrogant way to write. And on the top, it's ignorant.

"Because every tom, dick and harry can win in dry,.." - So then I guess Hamilton wasn't one of the toms, dicks and harrys when he was lacking performance and couldn't manage to control his car in FP1-FP3 compared to his team mate? Just a little example.

No mate, he comprehensively demolished your argument with facts and you didn't like it, it wasn't arrogant or ignorant.

However, it is ignorant to suggest spins in free practice session mean anything other than the driver trying to find the limit. I remember Schumacher in his pomp spinning in countless FP sessions as he was finding the limit, come the race he pissed off into the distance, so your point?

Yea.. I really doubt Hamilton would have made a big jump from FP3 to Qualifying, if conditions had stayed the same. He most probably would have finished behind both Ferraris and his team mate at least.

[JonoNic]

All I'm saying is that Bottas doing well shows that the Mercedes is very good in the rain. It's not all Hamilton as you were alluding earlier.

Bottas has always been good in the wet, he put a Williams P3 in Canada 2013. Who was on pole, Vettel at the height of the Red Bull domination with their blown overrun diffuser. P2 was Hamilton.

So what does this say? A great car will compliment a mediocre wet driver but only a great wet driver will excel in a mediocre car.

Fair point

[GrandAxe]

So Cooken. Why don't you blow Bottas horn too? I have read many times that Bottas is not as good as Rosberg, but the same guys saying Rosberg was not good in the rain.

Hamilton had one guy to beat. Well done to him.

Woah...umm... all I said was that some driver ability was involved to counter the assertion that "ability counts for nothing". I did not blow any horns, but if you're asking if Bottas getting 2nd involved some ability in the wet, then the answer is also yes.
Not sure why all of a sudden you want to involve a Bottas vs Rosberg comparison.

All I'm saying is that Bottas doing well shows that the Mercedes is very good in the rain. It's not all Hamilton as you were alluding earlier.

Want to see near spiritual wet weather skills? Enjoy!

[Shakeman]

Had Hamilton rolled the die differently and chose to stay at McLaren we may be seeing Rosberg as a multi WDC winner and maybe going for his 4th. In the dry he was a match for Hamilton or a just tiny fraction slower but in the wet Hamilton made it look like there was something wrong with Rosberg's car. The difference was enormous.

Rosberg was an excellent driver but Hamilton is one of the great drivers of the sport as he has shown countless times during his career. To suggest otherwise is akin to believing the Earth is flat.

[siskue2005]

Woah...umm... all I said was that some driver ability was involved to counter the assertion that "ability counts for nothing". I did not blow any horns, but if you're asking if Bottas getting 2nd involved some ability in the wet, then the answer is also yes.
Not sure why all of a sudden you want to involve a Bottas vs Rosberg comparison.

All I'm saying is that Bottas doing well shows that the Mercedes is very good in the rain. It's not all Hamilton as you were alluding earlier.

Want to see near spiritual wet weather skills? Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/DizI6XPMtsk

[sarcasm mode on] Naaahhh......the McLaren was fast on rain.... nothing to do with LH skill [/sarcasm mode off]

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Well, the toms, dicks and harrys have not had the comfort of having been in the, by far, fastest car for several years.

Are you saying, Alonso, Button and Rosberg don't even belong to tom, dick and harry categories? They had the same as he did.

Hamilton's only opponent has been his team mate for 3 years straight starting from 2014. Also Maldonado, who you mentioned, would have been at least 2nd in the WDC list at the end of the season in such a superior car.

This is one thing I absolutely agree with you as I didn't rated Rosberg that high either. Even Senna, Schumacher and Vettel had dominant cars in their championship years as did their team mates. Does that belittle their achievements and status in the history?

[GPR-A duplicate2]

So what I don't understand is - hot temps the Mercs are overheating their tires? because they put more energy in to them than Ferrari does. But what EXACTLY does that even mean? It's not a matter of weight right? I mean Mercedes wouldn't want the car to be heavy like a Nissan GT-R cause that would be detrimental to the car's overall performance so weight is not the reason why the Merc drives the tires hard. Is it suspension setup? As in much more stiffer in general because they don't run the rake like Ferrari and Red Bull do? Less downforce overall so they have to have more camber? I am trying to understand here. What do you guys think is the reason?

Yes, the no-rake design and harder suspension means less travel to take care of bumps and this and that, which means traction isn't quite there, which means tyres slide more, which means overheating and blistering.

This is largely true, but only limited to qualifying. In races, they have been generally faster. Unlike in 2012 and 2013, where they only had a good car for qualifying (specifically in 2013), the tyre overheating was far brutal factor in races. I have mentioned this before and I strongly believe, wherever Pirelli brings a skipped compound (US, S, M), they find it difficult to set it up, but if the compounds are are like (US, SS, S), then they are far happy. Hypersoft might be the worst case scenario for them.

[TAG]

things looking pretty treacherous out there.

[cooken]

So Cooken. Why don't you blow Bottas horn too? I have read many times that Bottas is not as good as Rosberg, but the same guys saying Rosberg was not good in the rain.

Hamilton had one guy to beat. Well done to him.

Woah...umm... all I said was that some driver ability was involved to counter the assertion that "ability counts for nothing". I did not blow any horns, but if you're asking if Bottas getting 2nd involved some ability in the wet, then the answer is also yes.
Not sure why all of a sudden you want to involve a Bottas vs Rosberg comparison.

All I'm saying is that Bottas doing well shows that the Mercedes is very good in the rain. It's not all Hamilton as you were alluding earlier.

And all I'm saying is that I made no such allusion. I never said it was all down to Hamilton. I never said it was all down to the car. I did say it was not one thing or the other, but a combination of both. Not sure why you are so down on Bottas to think that just because he qualified ahead of Kimi and Seb that it is all down to car over skill... but again that was never relevant to my assertion.

[cooken]

So it occurs to me that some believe that the Merc is a better car in the wet than the Ferrari, despite the generally recognized belief that the Ferrari is better in the dry (at least specifically for Hungary). What would be the technical reason for this? As far as I can tell the consensus is that Merc is poor on traction due to low rake design leading to stiffer rear setup, and that Ferrari has great traction and rear stability. Based on that I would expect Ferrari to also excel in wet conditions. I guess tyre compound mostly trumps all that? Possibly Merc running a bit more downforce here?

[JonoNic]

Whatever bud keep cooken. I made a point and you are trying to trash it. Maybe our chats will go better next time.

[Spoutnik]

So it occurs to me that some believe that the Merc is a better car in the wet than the Ferrari, despite the generally recognized belief that the Ferrari is better in the dry (at least specifically for Hungary). What would be the technical reason for this? As far as I can tell the consensus is that Merc is poor on traction due to low rake design leading to stiffer rear setup, and that Ferrari has great traction and rear stability. Based on that I would expect Ferrari to also excel in wet conditions. I guess tyre compound mostly trumps all that? Possibly Merc running a bit more downforce here?

Merc drivers were simply better. Raikkonen clearly had the pace for the pole but didn't manage to finish his last lap on fresh tires properly, he even said the car was pretty good in these conditions, as for Vettel he was off the pace and to me there's nothing to do with a car so stable and easy to drive as the Ferrari.

[Mansell89]

Anyone know the Safety Car percentage stats for Hungary?

I actually think Red Bull could cause absolute havoc if they can switch to a fast tyre in the final third of the race- if of course they are close enough and not far back.

They should be aggressive tomorrow as they have nothing to lose.