Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

[Wouter]

I think that RB foremost is lacking experienced feedback for developing the car. I wonder why the 'twitchyness' of the car was emphasized when RIC left. VER is fast but also not on all levels matured. And may be because of his talent can drive with whatever you give him. But that could 'blur' feedback and direction for the car to develop in. So RB needs an experienced fast driver who can give valuable feedback. I rate Perez high enough to be beneficial for the team in that regard. And he brings experience with the Mercedes platform with him. The W10 he has driven surely has gems in it that RB could use.

Horner has said that Max is extremely good at giving feedback! Ricciardo often took over the setup from Max, to which Horner admitted that Ricciardo was not very good at giving the right feedback. Even Ricciardo has admitted that several times in front of the camera. He didn't even know how to name all the parts of the car. So what you are saying here is very strange to me.

And as for Perez ..... When Hulkenberg came in for Perez, he improved the car a lot in a short time according to
Otmar Szafnauer. He had discovered "problems" that Perez could not deal with and solved them, .

[Moore77]

I think that RB foremost is lacking experienced feedback for developing the car. I wonder why the 'twitchyness' of the car was emphasized when RIC left. VER is fast but also not on all levels matured. And may be because of his talent can drive with whatever you give him. But that could
'blur' feedback and direction for the car to develop in. So RB needs an experienced fast driver who can give valuable feedback. I rate Perez high enough to be beneficial for the team in that regard. And he brings experience with the Mercedes platform with him. The W10 he has driven surely has gems in it that RB could use.

Was it RIC left or the new simplified front wing starting 2019 that has brought the twitchyness to RB cars? Since when did Red Bull started listening to the No.2 driver for developing their car?

[El Scorchio]

Since when did Red Bull started listening to the No.2 driver for developing their car?

And there's the concern, I think. If they develop their car specifically to the personal preference of one driver, then whoever the second driver is will always suffer. They need to decide whether their goal is to maximise Verstappen's results, or maximise the results of both drivers.

For me, it's surely worth the risk of taking 0.1 off Max to add 0.3 to the second driver and getting an overall stronger result. (as an example. Not saying these are 'accurate' times)

[Manoah2u]

Since always, as any team will. No matter the driver's 'status', it's feedback is important. Ricciardo is a very fast driver with a very different driving style to that of Max, which gives a whole different feedback and as such, a wider platform to expand or operate on, all by a fast, smart and experienced driver.

as for either Gasly or Albon, both are drivers that -when initially went to RB- not fast at all (especially Alex), not experienced (again, Alex worse than Gasly), and it remains to be seen how good of feedback they can give. This creates an element of 'question' in play. With Daniel, they were sure, with Alex or Pierre, they were facing an uncertain variable.
Then there's the issue of talent, which further 'narrows' the platform and lowers it's limit.

To me, these things play a huge role in why the RB16 was less stellar in it's performances than actually expected.
Unfortunately this does not bode well for 2021 either.

If they finally get smart and wise and put Perez in for 2021, then we have a very smart, fast, and experienced driver that definately can develop and give feedback, and has a different style to that of Max aswell. Perez is an assett for RBR and i hope they're so smart to use that asset.

If they do, they can improve a lot by 2022's season start and actually become a threat atleast on paper for the 2022 or 2023 season.
As for Albon present, paired to Max, on paper, you have Max, which is very good, but Alex, is bad, so you could argue it's equaled out and you get a general team. not good on paper, since the car itself is not on fe Merc's level.

[Wouter]

as for either Gasly or Albon, both are drivers that -when initially went to RB- not fast at all (especially Alex), not experienced (again, Alex worse than Gasly), and it remains to be seen how good of feedback they can give. This creates an element of 'question' in play.

To me, these things play a huge role in why the RB16 was less stellar in it's performances than actually expected.
Unfortunately this does not bode well for 2021 either.

You probably missed that they had correlation issues again at the start this year.
They have also gone wrong with their design. This has all been confirmed by Horner.
It took them half a year to get the car in balance!
And do you think that is all because of the bad feedback from Albon? I don't agree to that.

[Big Tea]

Since when did Red Bull started listening to the No.2 driver for developing their car?

And there's the concern, I think. If they develop their car specifically to the personal preference of one driver, then whoever the second driver is will always suffer. They need to decide whether their goal is to maximise Verstappen's results, or maximise the results of both drivers.

For me, it's surely worth the risk of taking 0.1 off Max to add 0.3 to the second driver and getting an overall stronger result. (as an example. Not saying these are 'accurate' times)

For Newey a driver is an inconvenience he has to design around rather than a source of information. Anyone catch the bit on Sky where Ant said about requesting larger cutaways for his hands?

[Moore77]

Since always, as any team will. No matter the driver's 'status', it's feedback is important. Ricciardo is a very fast driver with a very different driving style to that of Max, which gives a whole different feedback and as such, a wider platform to expand or operate on, all by a fast, smart and experienced driver.

as for either Gasly or Albon, both are drivers that -when initially went to RB- not fast at all (especially Alex), not experienced (again, Alex worse than Gasly), and it remains to be seen how good of feedback they can give. This creates an element of 'question' in play. With Daniel, they were sure, with Alex or Pierre, they were facing an uncertain variable.
Then there's the issue of talent, which further 'narrows' the platform and lowers it's limit.

To me, these things play a huge role in why the RB16 was less stellar in it's performances than actually expected.
Unfortunately this does not bode well for 2021 either.

If they finally get smart and wise and put Perez in for 2021, then we have a very smart, fast, and experienced driver that definately can develop and give feedback, and has a different style to that of Max aswell. Perez is an assett for RBR and i hope they're so smart to use that asset.

If they do, they can improve a lot by 2022's season start and actually become a threat atleast on paper for the 2022 or 2023 season.
As for Albon present, paired to Max, on paper, you have Max, which is very good, but Alex, is bad, so you could argue it's equaled out and you get a general team. not good on paper, since the car itself is not on fe Merc's level.

If I have followed Red Bull correctly, driver feedback isn't their concern. My hunch is, RB15 and RB16 have struggled, not because the drivers didn't develop it, but because there is an inherent problem in their design. I am afraid, it is going to continue in RB17 if they haven't already fixed it.

Every team has a major headache in front of them. Should they focus on 2021 or 2022 and it's probably same for Red Bull. If my hunch is right, RB17 would be even worse, having lost downforce due to floor changes, which again is a very strong Red Bull area of performance. It would either turn out to be a very slow car OR an extremely difficult car. If Red Bull doesn't want to do the same mistake of 2014, they would be putting all resources to focus more on 2022 and if they are, the train to provide any feedback for 2022 car for Perez (if he is driving for them) is long gone. The difficulty for him is, he would be driving two cars (2021 and 2022) in which he has no part in providing any kind of driver feedback. His real feedback would be for 2023 car, if he survives driving RB17 and RB18 (if that doesn't turn out to be another difficult car). Red Bull would be an impatient team to keep him beyond 2021 if he doesn't do better than Alex did. For Perez it would be, out of the Frying Pan and into the Fire or shall we say, other way round.

[Moore77]

For Newey a driver is an inconvenience he has to design around rather than a source of information.

You couldn't have put it anymore simpler than this.

[Scorpaguy]

Kyv...I wonder where he ends up? I think he would be faster than Alb at Red Bull...not sure he would/would not be faster than Checo. I think if I were a multi-billionaire, I would form a NASCAR team and place Kyv therein.

[El Scorchio]

as for either Gasly or Albon, both are drivers that -when initially went to RB- not fast at all (especially Alex), not experienced (again, Alex worse than Gasly), and it remains to be seen how good of feedback they can give. This creates an element of 'question' in play.

To me, these things play a huge role in why the RB16 was less stellar in it's performances than actually expected.
Unfortunately this does not bode well for 2021 either.

You probably missed that they had correlation issues again at the start this year.
They have also gone wrong with their design. This has all been confirmed by Horner.
It took them half a year to get the car in balance!
And do you think that is all because of the bad feedback from Albon? I don't agree to that.

No, not just Albon but maybe from their combination of young drivers, quality of feedback was an issue which hasn't helped car development.

[Racer X]

The stats echo of earlier discussions had here
Hulkenberg provides steady baseline, but poor 'snatching skills' when opportunity arises.
Perez slightly poorer baseline (called a bit more 'twitchy' or sometimes linked to a bit more aggression), but he's king of seizing the opportunity.

RB has to decide which of the two they see fit their needs more. My favor was for Hulkenberg, fitting more the 2nd driver role, but I do presume Perez has the best cards right now. Quite steady performance lately, and not too much aggression from his side.

Yeah but there's a couple years missing still in Perez's comparison. Funny that Christian Horner reminded everyone that Checo raced for him prior to F1. So he's already worked with him and he's considering his own personal experience with Perez as a part of his evaluation.

How is something from 10 years ago relevant? Sure you have these mega talents like Hamilton or Verstappen etc who were instantly recognisable but you had great drivers like Mansell or even Senna or more recently Button who got their breaks in top cars much later and whose skillset development took place much later

Then why list the comparison to Button but leave out more current seasons.

The stuff with Button is from a long time ago. You can ask to have OLD data looked at but the same time ignore seasons that are more recent. All of it is relevant it just solidifies his current form.

[Racer X]

As for Perez ..... When Hulkenberg came in for Perez, he improved the car a lot in a short time according to
Otmar Szafnauer. He had discovered "problems" that Perez could not deal with and solved them, .

He didn't say Perez could not deal with the problems you are adding to something Otmar said. Also Otmar also said a few days earlier in the F1 Nation Podcast that Perez used to help Hulkenberg understand how to drive the car so that he could balance out his tire performance better and so that he could have better race pace on Sunday because Hulkenberg would always be slower on Sunday.

The skill set you are describing for Hulkenberg makes him an ideal test driver. According to Otmars quotes.

It sounds like Hulkenberg would make a good driver to have in a simulator and as a test driver.

Perez is the one you want on Sunday last i checked that's what RedBull is looking for a Sunday finisher a Sunday Driver who can cut the field down and push Hamilton to keep him from being able to use a different strategy against Max if he needs to change it up.

[Moore77]

Perez is the one you want on Sunday last i checked that's what RedBull is looking for a Sunday finisher a Sunday Driver who can cut the field down and push Hamilton to keep him from being able to use a different strategy against Max if he needs to change it up.

Not to spoil the fun here, but Hamilton would be untouchable even in 2021. If anyone who is going to trouble the Mercedes strategy next year, it would be Riccardo in Mercedes powered McLaren. My bet is on both McLarens beating Perez in qualifying if he is driving RB17. On occasions, Alonso would get ahead too. If anyone is going to be in big trouble, it's Bottas. IMHO, the best case is Perez fighting with Norris in races. The dark horse would be Vettel in the Aston Martin, if they come out with W10 rearend (or the whole of it). There is a lot that Perez has to deal with.

[nzjrs]

Perez is the one you want on Sunday last i checked that's what RedBull is looking for a Sunday finisher a Sunday Driver who can cut the field down and push Hamilton to keep him from being able to use a different strategy against Max if he needs to change it up.

Not to spoil the fun here, but Hamilton would be untouchable even in 2021. If anyone who is going to trouble the Mercedes strategy next year, it would be Riccardo in Mercedes powered McLaren. My bet is on both McLarens beating Perez in qualifying if he is driving RB17. On occasions, Alonso would get ahead too. If anyone is going to be in big trouble, it's Bottas. IMHO, the best case is Perez fighting with Norris in races. The dark horse would be Vettel in the Aston Martin, if they come out with W10 rearend (or the whole of it). There is a lot that Perez has to deal with.

We should get a prediction thread started because this is bold.

[JordanMugen]

As a far more experienced driver, in not only years, but also cars, if Perez can not get with in a couple tenths of max within what time span can we say the problem was not Albon (or Gasly) it was the car?

No, not at all. That just means Perez isn't as skilled as Ricciardo. But many folks think Perez's talent is, to the contrary, right up there with some of the best in F1.