The model is explained in great detail here : https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2019/09 ... ics-model/ and https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2016/10 ... k-drivers/Just_a_fan wrote: ↑20 Dec 2020, 20:57Hmm, a "pick years to give required result" model.PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑20 Dec 2020, 20:47This model rates Vettel quite highly. At least up to 2018.
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/
The model in the link I posted takes car pace into account. So check it out.Kingshark wrote: ↑20 Dec 2020, 22:05Vettel was basically the lord and saviour around these forums back in 2013. He couldn’t do anything wrong. He was the fastest, the most consistent, the most complete, the best at everything apparently. Only after his limitations were exposed in the hybrid era did people finally look at his accomplishments with a more objective outlook.
Right now Hamilton has god status among F1 fans. He is the fastest, most consistent, the best at everything, you name it. Although that illusion took a hit in Sakhir when Russell did basically the same thing Hamilton does every weekend with zero practice in the Merc.
The ability of drivers who drive the best cars have always been overrated for as long as I can remember.
Alonso was always better than Vettel, even when Vettel was at his most dominant. Likewise, in 2020 Verstappen is the best driver on the grid.
You completely misquoted and misunderstood the reply and its context to the person i was replying to. I can list a bunch of drivers from the past decade and i did list a few who none seem to have lost that last few tenths as you mentioned. So if no driver in the past decade magically loses tenths after being sacked, fired, contract not renewed, etc why is this excuse being used for Vettel?Jolle wrote: ↑20 Dec 2020, 23:26Didn’t Alonso “forget” the chicane in his last GP for McLaren during the last few laps?Mclarensenna wrote: ↑19 Dec 2020, 06:43
F1 drivers are very very competitive and everytime the helmet goes on they are in full focus on the race ahead.
Lets look back in history the last decade or so to confirm this theory if true or not
Alonso left Ferrari still drove to his maximum right to the final race
Alonso left Mclaren still drove to his maximum right to the final race
Ric leaving Renault still drove to his maximum right to the final race
Sainz left Mclaren still drove to his maximum to the final race
Perez sacked by Aston while still under contract yet still drove to his maximum right to the final race
Hulk sacked by Renault still drove to his maximum right to the final race
I can give countless more examples of drivers leaving teams being sacked, fired etc
All would have reason to be annoyed, lost motivation, angry, hurt, depressed, betrayed, toxic environment etc etc
But why cannot find even 1 example of an F1 driver deliberately driving well off "his actual regular pace/performance level" ????
Can somebody give even 1 example or possibly a few from the past decade? As i am stumped.
As we have quite a few f1 fans use the excuse Vettel deliberately drove well below his maximum in 2014 and now 2020? So its the second time this excuse has been used for Vettel.
But I have never seen any evidence of this happening to any f1 driver over the past decade so no idea where this theory/idea even started?
Most of these drives left their teams on their own terms. A driver who isn’t comfortable where he is, doesn’t have that last few tenths. Damon Hill is maybe the best example of someone that didn’t want to race but Jordan made him. He parked a perfect healthy car in his last GP.
). The thing that we should focus on is that Russell beat Bottas! That means a lot for a guy without any practice in a new car! Except that Russell DIDN'T beat Bottas, he finished behind him in both qually AND the race. And Hamilton was never hard on the tires, that was a myth propagated by liars trying to find fault with his driving.AMG.Tzan wrote: ↑21 Dec 2020, 03:10Some people keep saying that Russell's performance in the Mercedes just showed that Hamilton isn't doing anything special...
Well, what if Russell is a special driver after all? Just like when Lewis got in a Mclaren for the first time as a rookie and beat Fernando over a season (who the article above claims is the 3rd best driver in history
Same thing would have happened if you would have put Raikkonen or Alonso in an F2004 in Schumacher's seat! Both would have easily won the race and beat Barrichello in the process! So what? Does that mean that Schumacher wasn't anything special?? I don't think so...
The thing is that when you're trying to find the "best driver" and not the "fastest driver" ever, it's not just all about speed! Hamilton has evolved so much over the years...he used to be one the worst drivers on his tires yet now he has become one of the best in that job!
To be the "best driver" you have to be on top of your game year after year and race after race! Look at Bottas...had Verstappen got a bit more luck he would have finished ahead of him in the WDC! Yet Bottas had a car that was miles ahead of anyone!
So yes Russell did manage to do what Hamilton does in a Mercedes...for a few laps! Can he do the same for a whole season? For 5 or even 10 seasons? Who knows...we'll learn in a few years' time!
Hamilton won 1 title in 7 years in the V8 era. Successful? Sure, but not dominant. Mercedes dominance in the hybrid era has given Hamilton an aura of invincibility that is mostly unwarranted.Just_a_fan wrote: ↑20 Dec 2020, 23:07Nicely forgetting that Hamilton was successful well before the hybrid era. And beat Alonso in the same car in his rookie year.Kingshark wrote: ↑20 Dec 2020, 22:05Vettel was basically the lord and saviour around these forums back in 2013. He couldn’t do anything wrong. He was the fastest, the most consistent, the most complete, the best at everything apparently. Only after his limitations were exposed in the hybrid era did people finally look at his accomplishments with a more objective outlook.
Right now Hamilton has god status among F1 fans. He is the fastest, most consistent, the best at everything, you name it. Although that illusion took a hit in Sakhir when Russell did basically the same thing Hamilton does every weekend with zero practice in the Merc.
The ability of drivers who drive the best cars have always been overrated for as long as I can remember.
Alonso was always better than Vettel, even when Vettel was at his most dominant. Likewise, in 2020 Verstappen is the best driver on the grid.
Verstappen has so far done nothing that others haven't also done before.
Other than that, spot on.
Unfortunately almost all of these models are all almost always completely wrong.nzjrs wrote: ↑20 Dec 2020, 23:29The model is explained in great detail here : https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2019/09 ... ics-model/ and https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2016/10 ... k-drivers/Just_a_fan wrote: ↑20 Dec 2020, 20:57Hmm, a "pick years to give required result" model.PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑20 Dec 2020, 20:47This model rates Vettel quite highly. At least up to 2018.
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/
It's not just about being dominant, it's about continually performing. Removing his title year, in the remaining 6 years of the V8 era, he took 17 wins and 24 poles. Add in his title year and that goes up to 23 wins and 31 poles. That's more than most drivers get in an entire career - even many world champions.Kingshark wrote: ↑21 Dec 2020, 06:33Hamilton won 1 title in 7 years in the V8 era. Successful? Sure, but not dominant. Mercedes dominance in the hybrid era has given Hamilton an aura of invincibility that is mostly unwarranted.Just_a_fan wrote: ↑20 Dec 2020, 23:07Nicely forgetting that Hamilton was successful well before the hybrid era. And beat Alonso in the same car in his rookie year.Kingshark wrote: ↑20 Dec 2020, 22:05Vettel was basically the lord and saviour around these forums back in 2013. He couldn’t do anything wrong. He was the fastest, the most consistent, the most complete, the best at everything apparently. Only after his limitations were exposed in the hybrid era did people finally look at his accomplishments with a more objective outlook.
Right now Hamilton has god status among F1 fans. He is the fastest, most consistent, the best at everything, you name it. Although that illusion took a hit in Sakhir when Russell did basically the same thing Hamilton does every weekend with zero practice in the Merc.
The ability of drivers who drive the best cars have always been overrated for as long as I can remember.
Alonso was always better than Vettel, even when Vettel was at his most dominant. Likewise, in 2020 Verstappen is the best driver on the grid.
Verstappen has so far done nothing that others haven't also done before.
Other than that, spot on.
As for Verstappen, we will have to wait and see on that one. He is still only 23 years old and has an entire career ahead of him. In my view he is a bigger talent Hamilton. Will that translate into incredible success? Depends if he is lucky enough to end up in the best cars.
Yeah you should ask yourself how he ended up behind Bottas (after passing him twice) in the race though...ENGINE TUNER wrote: ↑21 Dec 2020, 05:10Except that Russell DIDN'T beat Bottas, he finished behind him in both qually AND the race. And Hamilton was never hard on the tires, that was a myth propagated by liars trying to find fault with his driving.AMG.Tzan wrote: ↑21 Dec 2020, 03:10Some people keep saying that Russell's performance in the Mercedes just showed that Hamilton isn't doing anything special...
Well, what if Russell is a special driver after all? Just like when Lewis got in a Mclaren for the first time as a rookie and beat Fernando over a season (who the article above claims is the 3rd best driver in history
Same thing would have happened if you would have put Raikkonen or Alonso in an F2004 in Schumacher's seat! Both would have easily won the race and beat Barrichello in the process! So what? Does that mean that Schumacher wasn't anything special?? I don't think so...
The thing is that when you're trying to find the "best driver" and not the "fastest driver" ever, it's not just all about speed! Hamilton has evolved so much over the years...he used to be one the worst drivers on his tires yet now he has become one of the best in that job!
To be the "best driver" you have to be on top of your game year after year and race after race! Look at Bottas...had Verstappen got a bit more luck he would have finished ahead of him in the WDC! Yet Bottas had a car that was miles ahead of anyone!
So yes Russell did manage to do what Hamilton does in a Mercedes...for a few laps! Can he do the same for a whole season? For 5 or even 10 seasons? Who knows...we'll learn in a few years' time!
Russell did a great job, but in reality he didn't do anything impossible. He got a decent/good start and Bottas didn't have a good shift into 2nd gear. Mostly everything after that was inconsequential. Can we please keep things in perspective.
I think this sums this thread up — and we should close the thread, tbhMclarensenna wrote: ↑21 Dec 2020, 07:32Unfortunately almost all of these models are all almost always completely wrong.
I remember back in 2013 every single Model basically had Vettel as a racing God who would eat Ric for breakfast and lapping him with his eyes closed. Not 1 model even gave Ric a remote chance and rated him as a backmarker compared to Vettel on sundays especially. Qualifying they rated him slightly but still below Vettel
The reason for this is the Torro rosso was an average qualifying car but poor race car, Ric would qualify in the top 10 sometimes and force to start on used tyres but also have to fight much faster cars then fall back. Especially towards his team mate who would start on new tyres. He was almost always going backards in the Torro Rosso and looked like a terrible racer on sundays.
Once Ric was in a decent car he turned into Mr overtaker in 2014 and was given rookie of the year even for most overtakes in 2014.
He went from seemingly below average racer to 1 of the best racers and overtakers on the grid overnight.
Russell another Mr saturday similar to Ric was am absolute monster on race day in Hamiltons car with shoes to small and not even fitting in car properly. yet we never saw even 1 monster race day performance in 2 years at Williams.
Russell went from Mr saturday sure but below average on sundays to Mr Superman sunday racer in just 1 week.
From backmarker sunday racer to hamilton level superstar racer in 1 week.
Night and day differences in those 2 examples.
Models can never account for the huge differences between cars hence they generally not very accurate.
Completely false. Button had better luck, and took more chances, but he was not faster in changing weather. Often button took the off strategy gamble, as he usually does, and failed miserably. And button definitely was not better in tire management.
This is a terrible comparison for two reasons:Just_a_fan wrote: ↑21 Dec 2020, 11:44It's not just about being dominant, it's about continually performing. Removing his title year, in the remaining 6 years of the V8 era, he took 17 wins and 24 poles. Add in his title year and that goes up to 23 wins and 31 poles. That's more than most drivers get in an entire career - even many world champions.
In the 6 years Max has been in F1, he's had 3 poles and 10 wins. Excellent results for one so young, but as I said before, nothing that others haven't also achieved.
You can only compare the results - they're the whole point of F1.Kingshark wrote: ↑21 Dec 2020, 17:11This is a terrible comparison for two reasons:Just_a_fan wrote: ↑21 Dec 2020, 11:44It's not just about being dominant, it's about continually performing. Removing his title year, in the remaining 6 years of the V8 era, he took 17 wins and 24 poles. Add in his title year and that goes up to 23 wins and 31 poles. That's more than most drivers get in an entire career - even many world champions.
In the 6 years Max has been in F1, he's had 3 poles and 10 wins. Excellent results for one so young, but as I said before, nothing that others haven't also achieved.
1. Verstappen joined F1 at the age of 17 after one year in cars. Hamilton joined F1 at the age of 22 after 5 years in cars. Hamilton was much older and more developed than Verstappen when he made his debut. Therefore simply comparing them by number of seasons is highly disingenuous.
2. If you actually compare Verstappen and Hamilton with the context of age and experience instead of just “number of seasons”, then Max in 2019 was at the same point in his career as Lewis 2007.
3. Verstappen has never in his career had a car that was as good as the McLaren cars of 2007, 2008, or even 2011/2012. Verstappen’s cars have been massively inferior to Mercedes in every season he has competed against, and not capable of winning anything more than a few races per season.
Statistics without context are completely meaningless, especially in a sport as dependent on machinery as Formula 1.
Vettel absolutely blows Ricciardo and Leclerc away if we just look at numbers, but evidently that doesn’t make him a better driver.
The thing that irks me about Verstappen, is that the only reference anyone has about the ability of a driver, is his direct performance against his team-mate. And considering that, the only driver he's driven against I rate as a somewhat known quantity is Ricciardo (who himself fared well against Seb in 2014) and Sainz. All the others have been subpar at best, so the whole record of beating his team-mates is as impressive as it has been for George Russel.
