Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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nzjrs
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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Just_a_fan wrote:
20 Dec 2020, 20:57
PlatinumZealot wrote:
20 Dec 2020, 20:47
This model rates Vettel quite highly. At least up to 2018.

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/
Hmm, a "pick years to give required result" model. :roll:
The model is explained in great detail here : https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2019/09 ... ics-model/ and https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2016/10 ... k-drivers/

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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Kingshark wrote:
20 Dec 2020, 22:05
Vettel was basically the lord and saviour around these forums back in 2013. He couldn’t do anything wrong. He was the fastest, the most consistent, the most complete, the best at everything apparently. Only after his limitations were exposed in the hybrid era did people finally look at his accomplishments with a more objective outlook.

Right now Hamilton has god status among F1 fans. He is the fastest, most consistent, the best at everything, you name it. Although that illusion took a hit in Sakhir when Russell did basically the same thing Hamilton does every weekend with zero practice in the Merc.

The ability of drivers who drive the best cars have always been overrated for as long as I can remember.

Alonso was always better than Vettel, even when Vettel was at his most dominant. Likewise, in 2020 Verstappen is the best driver on the grid.
The model in the link I posted takes car pace into account. So check it out.
It shows that Vettel took some time to come up to speed. This is a bit different from Lewis especially who was fast right off the bat. Vettel's peaks are bit up and down throughout his RedBull and Ferrari years, then they start to decline.
Ham and Alonso's peaks are fairly steady throughout their careers. Pretty much the same narrative as what we have come to expect, Vettel at his best is really elite, but he has some weaknesses in adaptability and pressure from the other cock-pit.
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Mclarensenna
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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Jolle wrote:
20 Dec 2020, 23:26
Mclarensenna wrote:
19 Dec 2020, 06:43
toraabe wrote:
18 Dec 2020, 21:59


The way vettel was sacked. Why should he drive maximum? Toxic environment....

F1 drivers are very very competitive and everytime the helmet goes on they are in full focus on the race ahead.
Lets look back in history the last decade or so to confirm this theory if true or not

Alonso left Ferrari still drove to his maximum right to the final race
Alonso left Mclaren still drove to his maximum right to the final race
Ric leaving Renault still drove to his maximum right to the final race
Sainz left Mclaren still drove to his maximum to the final race
Perez sacked by Aston while still under contract yet still drove to his maximum right to the final race
Hulk sacked by Renault still drove to his maximum right to the final race

I can give countless more examples of drivers leaving teams being sacked, fired etc
All would have reason to be annoyed, lost motivation, angry, hurt, depressed, betrayed, toxic environment etc etc

But why cannot find even 1 example of an F1 driver deliberately driving well off "his actual regular pace/performance level" ????
Can somebody give even 1 example or possibly a few from the past decade? As i am stumped.

As we have quite a few f1 fans use the excuse Vettel deliberately drove well below his maximum in 2014 and now 2020? So its the second time this excuse has been used for Vettel.
But I have never seen any evidence of this happening to any f1 driver over the past decade so no idea where this theory/idea even started?
Didn’t Alonso “forget” the chicane in his last GP for McLaren during the last few laps? 😂

Most of these drives left their teams on their own terms. A driver who isn’t comfortable where he is, doesn’t have that last few tenths. Damon Hill is maybe the best example of someone that didn’t want to race but Jordan made him. He parked a perfect healthy car in his last GP.
You completely misquoted and misunderstood the reply and its context to the person i was replying to. I can list a bunch of drivers from the past decade and i did list a few who none seem to have lost that last few tenths as you mentioned. So if no driver in the past decade magically loses tenths after being sacked, fired, contract not renewed, etc why is this excuse being used for Vettel?
if it happens to all f1 drivers or half of them you could say yep its a common theme, its happening to Vettel, nothing to see here.
But if its never happened even once the past decade why is this excuse being used???

"A driver who isn’t comfortable where he is, doesn’t have that last few tenths." <-------- So yes i appreciate your reply so show 1 example or a few if possible from the past decade where this occured. Damon Hill is well past the decade i mentioned that you replied to, hence i mentioned show recent examples from the past decade so all the new posters can follow along.
But lets look at your Alonso example sure.
ALonso last season 20/0 in qualifying, Alonso 50 points Stoffel 12
Final Abhu Dhabi race Alonso qualified 15th and Stofeell 18th 3 tenths off the pace
Alonso finished 11th and Stoffell 14th
So where exactly did Alonso lose those last few tenths?
I have yet to see 1 driver of the past decade lose that last few tenths in not just the final 1 race but also the final half season or full season of races to get a clearer picture.
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AMG.Tzan
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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Some people keep saying that Russell's performance in the Mercedes just showed that Hamilton isn't doing anything special...

Well, what if Russell is a special driver after all? Just like when Lewis got in a Mclaren for the first time as a rookie and beat Fernando over a season (who the article above claims is the 3rd best driver in history :oops:). The thing that we should focus on is that Russell beat Bottas! That means a lot for a guy without any practice in a new car!

Same thing would have happened if you would have put Raikkonen or Alonso in an F2004 in Schumacher's seat! Both would have easily won the race and beat Barrichello in the process! So what? Does that mean that Schumacher wasn't anything special?? I don't think so...

The thing is that when you're trying to find the "best driver" and not the "fastest driver" ever, it's not just all about speed! Hamilton has evolved so much over the years...he used to be one the worst drivers on his tires yet now he has become one of the best in that job!

To be the "best driver" you have to be on top of your game year after year and race after race! Look at Bottas...had Verstappen got a bit more luck he would have finished ahead of him in the WDC! Yet Bottas had a car that was miles ahead of anyone!

So yes Russell did manage to do what Hamilton does in a Mercedes...for a few laps! Can he do the same for a whole season? For 5 or even 10 seasons? Who knows...we'll learn in a few years' time!
"The only rule is there are no rules" - Aristotle Onassis

ENGINE TUNER
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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AMG.Tzan wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 03:10
Some people keep saying that Russell's performance in the Mercedes just showed that Hamilton isn't doing anything special...

Well, what if Russell is a special driver after all? Just like when Lewis got in a Mclaren for the first time as a rookie and beat Fernando over a season (who the article above claims is the 3rd best driver in history :oops:). The thing that we should focus on is that Russell beat Bottas! That means a lot for a guy without any practice in a new car!

Same thing would have happened if you would have put Raikkonen or Alonso in an F2004 in Schumacher's seat! Both would have easily won the race and beat Barrichello in the process! So what? Does that mean that Schumacher wasn't anything special?? I don't think so...

The thing is that when you're trying to find the "best driver" and not the "fastest driver" ever, it's not just all about speed! Hamilton has evolved so much over the years...he used to be one the worst drivers on his tires yet now he has become one of the best in that job!

To be the "best driver" you have to be on top of your game year after year and race after race! Look at Bottas...had Verstappen got a bit more luck he would have finished ahead of him in the WDC! Yet Bottas had a car that was miles ahead of anyone!

So yes Russell did manage to do what Hamilton does in a Mercedes...for a few laps! Can he do the same for a whole season? For 5 or even 10 seasons? Who knows...we'll learn in a few years' time!
Except that Russell DIDN'T beat Bottas, he finished behind him in both qually AND the race. And Hamilton was never hard on the tires, that was a myth propagated by liars trying to find fault with his driving.

Russell did a great job, but in reality he didn't do anything impossible. He got a decent/good start and Bottas didn't have a good shift into 2nd gear. Mostly everything after that was inconsequential. Can we please keep things in perspective.
Last edited by ENGINE TUNER on 21 Dec 2020, 05:11, edited 1 time in total.

Kingshark
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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Just_a_fan wrote:
20 Dec 2020, 23:07
Kingshark wrote:
20 Dec 2020, 22:05
Vettel was basically the lord and saviour around these forums back in 2013. He couldn’t do anything wrong. He was the fastest, the most consistent, the most complete, the best at everything apparently. Only after his limitations were exposed in the hybrid era did people finally look at his accomplishments with a more objective outlook.

Right now Hamilton has god status among F1 fans. He is the fastest, most consistent, the best at everything, you name it. Although that illusion took a hit in Sakhir when Russell did basically the same thing Hamilton does every weekend with zero practice in the Merc.

The ability of drivers who drive the best cars have always been overrated for as long as I can remember.

Alonso was always better than Vettel, even when Vettel was at his most dominant. Likewise, in 2020 Verstappen is the best driver on the grid.
Nicely forgetting that Hamilton was successful well before the hybrid era. And beat Alonso in the same car in his rookie year.

Verstappen has so far done nothing that others haven't also done before.

Other than that, spot on. :lol:
Hamilton won 1 title in 7 years in the V8 era. Successful? Sure, but not dominant. Mercedes dominance in the hybrid era has given Hamilton an aura of invincibility that is mostly unwarranted.

As for Verstappen, we will have to wait and see on that one. He is still only 23 years old and has an entire career ahead of him. In my view he is a bigger talent Hamilton. Will that translate into incredible success? Depends if he is lucky enough to end up in the best cars.

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Mclarensenna
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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nzjrs wrote:
20 Dec 2020, 23:29
Just_a_fan wrote:
20 Dec 2020, 20:57
PlatinumZealot wrote:
20 Dec 2020, 20:47
This model rates Vettel quite highly. At least up to 2018.

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/
Hmm, a "pick years to give required result" model. :roll:
The model is explained in great detail here : https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2019/09 ... ics-model/ and https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2016/10 ... k-drivers/
Unfortunately almost all of these models are all almost always completely wrong.
I remember back in 2013 every single Model basically had Vettel as a racing God who would eat Ric for breakfast and lapping him with his eyes closed. Not 1 model even gave Ric a remote chance and rated him as a backmarker compared to Vettel on sundays especially. Qualifying they rated him slightly but still below Vettel

The reason for this is the Torro rosso was an average qualifying car but poor race car, Ric would qualify in the top 10 sometimes and force to start on used tyres but also have to fight much faster cars then fall back. Especially towards his team mate who would start on new tyres. He was almost always going backards in the Torro Rosso and looked like a terrible racer on sundays.

Once Ric was in a decent car he turned into Mr overtaker in 2014 and was given rookie of the year even for most overtakes in 2014.
He went from seemingly below average racer to 1 of the best racers and overtakers on the grid overnight.

Russell another Mr saturday similar to Ric was am absolute monster on race day in Hamiltons car with shoes to small and not even fitting in car properly. yet we never saw even 1 monster race day performance in 2 years at Williams.
Russell went from Mr saturday sure but below average on sundays to Mr Superman sunday racer in just 1 week.
From backmarker sunday racer to hamilton level superstar racer in 1 week.
Night and day differences in those 2 examples.
Models can never account for the huge differences between cars hence they generally not very accurate.
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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Kingshark wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 06:33
Just_a_fan wrote:
20 Dec 2020, 23:07
Kingshark wrote:
20 Dec 2020, 22:05
Vettel was basically the lord and saviour around these forums back in 2013. He couldn’t do anything wrong. He was the fastest, the most consistent, the most complete, the best at everything apparently. Only after his limitations were exposed in the hybrid era did people finally look at his accomplishments with a more objective outlook.

Right now Hamilton has god status among F1 fans. He is the fastest, most consistent, the best at everything, you name it. Although that illusion took a hit in Sakhir when Russell did basically the same thing Hamilton does every weekend with zero practice in the Merc.

The ability of drivers who drive the best cars have always been overrated for as long as I can remember.

Alonso was always better than Vettel, even when Vettel was at his most dominant. Likewise, in 2020 Verstappen is the best driver on the grid.
Nicely forgetting that Hamilton was successful well before the hybrid era. And beat Alonso in the same car in his rookie year.

Verstappen has so far done nothing that others haven't also done before.

Other than that, spot on. :lol:
Hamilton won 1 title in 7 years in the V8 era. Successful? Sure, but not dominant. Mercedes dominance in the hybrid era has given Hamilton an aura of invincibility that is mostly unwarranted.

As for Verstappen, we will have to wait and see on that one. He is still only 23 years old and has an entire career ahead of him. In my view he is a bigger talent Hamilton. Will that translate into incredible success? Depends if he is lucky enough to end up in the best cars.
It's not just about being dominant, it's about continually performing. Removing his title year, in the remaining 6 years of the V8 era, he took 17 wins and 24 poles. Add in his title year and that goes up to 23 wins and 31 poles. That's more than most drivers get in an entire career - even many world champions.

In the 6 years Max has been in F1, he's had 3 poles and 10 wins. Excellent results for one so young, but as I said before, nothing that others haven't also achieved.

Given the car, Max can and will achieve great things. But likewise George and Charles. What we must hope for is a chance for all of them to compete and show their skill.

One can say that Hamilton only has his stats because he's had great cars. That's true, just as Schumacher had great cars, and Senna, and Prost, and Fangio... He helped to develop his great cars, of course, by giving feedback and do laps/time int he sim. But the key take away point is that he has performed at the highest level year after year. He has improved his skill set year after year. Go ask Rosberg about what is required to beat him. It's not that he's necessarily the fastest man out there, it's that he is absolutely 100% focused on improving every aspect of his game year on year. You can beat him on a given day but beating him over a season? Or over two seasons or three seasons? That's a whole different world of dedication and single-minded determination that few have in F1.
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AMG.Tzan
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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ENGINE TUNER wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 05:10
AMG.Tzan wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 03:10
Some people keep saying that Russell's performance in the Mercedes just showed that Hamilton isn't doing anything special...

Well, what if Russell is a special driver after all? Just like when Lewis got in a Mclaren for the first time as a rookie and beat Fernando over a season (who the article above claims is the 3rd best driver in history :oops:). The thing that we should focus on is that Russell beat Bottas! That means a lot for a guy without any practice in a new car!

Same thing would have happened if you would have put Raikkonen or Alonso in an F2004 in Schumacher's seat! Both would have easily won the race and beat Barrichello in the process! So what? Does that mean that Schumacher wasn't anything special?? I don't think so...

The thing is that when you're trying to find the "best driver" and not the "fastest driver" ever, it's not just all about speed! Hamilton has evolved so much over the years...he used to be one the worst drivers on his tires yet now he has become one of the best in that job!

To be the "best driver" you have to be on top of your game year after year and race after race! Look at Bottas...had Verstappen got a bit more luck he would have finished ahead of him in the WDC! Yet Bottas had a car that was miles ahead of anyone!

So yes Russell did manage to do what Hamilton does in a Mercedes...for a few laps! Can he do the same for a whole season? For 5 or even 10 seasons? Who knows...we'll learn in a few years' time!
Except that Russell DIDN'T beat Bottas, he finished behind him in both qually AND the race. And Hamilton was never hard on the tires, that was a myth propagated by liars trying to find fault with his driving.

Russell did a great job, but in reality he didn't do anything impossible. He got a decent/good start and Bottas didn't have a good shift into 2nd gear. Mostly everything after that was inconsequential. Can we please keep things in perspective.
Yeah you should ask yourself how he ended up behind Bottas (after passing him twice) in the race though... :)

Finishing behind someone on pure pace alone is different to finishing behind someone because of a team's stupid mistakes and unluckiness (puncture)!

I am a Hamilton fan and back in his Mclaren days Button used to be better in tire and changing weather conditions management! That's what i meant by "hard on his tires", not that he was the hardest driver on tires.
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raymondu999
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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Mclarensenna wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 07:32
Unfortunately almost all of these models are all almost always completely wrong.
I remember back in 2013 every single Model basically had Vettel as a racing God who would eat Ric for breakfast and lapping him with his eyes closed. Not 1 model even gave Ric a remote chance and rated him as a backmarker compared to Vettel on sundays especially. Qualifying they rated him slightly but still below Vettel

The reason for this is the Torro rosso was an average qualifying car but poor race car, Ric would qualify in the top 10 sometimes and force to start on used tyres but also have to fight much faster cars then fall back. Especially towards his team mate who would start on new tyres. He was almost always going backards in the Torro Rosso and looked like a terrible racer on sundays.

Once Ric was in a decent car he turned into Mr overtaker in 2014 and was given rookie of the year even for most overtakes in 2014.
He went from seemingly below average racer to 1 of the best racers and overtakers on the grid overnight.

Russell another Mr saturday similar to Ric was am absolute monster on race day in Hamiltons car with shoes to small and not even fitting in car properly. yet we never saw even 1 monster race day performance in 2 years at Williams.
Russell went from Mr saturday sure but below average on sundays to Mr Superman sunday racer in just 1 week.
From backmarker sunday racer to hamilton level superstar racer in 1 week.
Night and day differences in those 2 examples.
Models can never account for the huge differences between cars hence they generally not very accurate.
I think this sums this thread up — and we should close the thread, tbh
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ENGINE TUNER
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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AMG.Tzan wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 14:28
I am a Hamilton fan and back in his Mclaren days Button used to be better in tire and changing weather conditions management! That's what i meant by "hard on his tires", not that he was the hardest driver on tires.
Completely false. Button had better luck, and took more chances, but he was not faster in changing weather. Often button took the off strategy gamble, as he usually does, and failed miserably. And button definitely was not better in tire management.

Bottas got passed on the start, which has happened to every driver, Bottas actually got a better initial start than Russell, as he should have since he was on the cleaner side. There could have been a car problem that caused the poor shift into 2nd, we will never know. 2nd pass, Bottas was on older, slower tires than Russell, nothing unexpected. Please understand context and keep things in perspective. The differences between these drivers are minute, the best way to gauge them is by looking at their major mistakes, Vettel, the topic of this thread, makes more mistakes(major and minor)than any other wdc driver I have ever observed.
Last edited by ENGINE TUNER on 21 Dec 2020, 15:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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As someone who hated Vettel’s dominance at the time, but can now appreciate it after the years, I think questioning his titles is just sour grapes. Seb and RBR did the business every weekend, got out of drs range in 1 lap and drove away with ease. He deserved every win and title.

I doubt we even saw the best of him due to the dominance of the car. It took a very special talent like Lewis to even get close! I would guess that Bottas has bettered Lewis more often than Webber bettered Seb in the winning seasons too, and people don’t rate Bottas for some reason.

His seasons after RBR, bar 2, were garbage but for those 3 seasons and an epic 2010 he was a monster.
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Kingshark
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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Just_a_fan wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 11:44
It's not just about being dominant, it's about continually performing. Removing his title year, in the remaining 6 years of the V8 era, he took 17 wins and 24 poles. Add in his title year and that goes up to 23 wins and 31 poles. That's more than most drivers get in an entire career - even many world champions.

In the 6 years Max has been in F1, he's had 3 poles and 10 wins. Excellent results for one so young, but as I said before, nothing that others haven't also achieved.
This is a terrible comparison for two reasons:

1. Verstappen joined F1 at the age of 17 after one year in cars. Hamilton joined F1 at the age of 22 after 5 years in cars. Hamilton was much older and more developed than Verstappen when he made his debut. Therefore simply comparing them by number of seasons is highly disingenuous.

2. If you actually compare Verstappen and Hamilton with the context of age and experience instead of just “number of seasons”, then Max in 2019 was at the same point in his career as Lewis 2007.

3. Verstappen has never in his career had a car that was as good as the McLaren cars of 2007, 2008, or even 2011/2012. Verstappen’s cars have been massively inferior to Mercedes in every season he has competed against, and not capable of winning anything more than a few races per season.

Statistics without context are completely meaningless, especially in a sport as dependent on machinery as Formula 1.

Vettel absolutely blows Ricciardo and Leclerc away if we just look at numbers, but evidently that doesn’t make him a better driver.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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Kingshark wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 17:11
Just_a_fan wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 11:44
It's not just about being dominant, it's about continually performing. Removing his title year, in the remaining 6 years of the V8 era, he took 17 wins and 24 poles. Add in his title year and that goes up to 23 wins and 31 poles. That's more than most drivers get in an entire career - even many world champions.

In the 6 years Max has been in F1, he's had 3 poles and 10 wins. Excellent results for one so young, but as I said before, nothing that others haven't also achieved.
This is a terrible comparison for two reasons:

1. Verstappen joined F1 at the age of 17 after one year in cars. Hamilton joined F1 at the age of 22 after 5 years in cars. Hamilton was much older and more developed than Verstappen when he made his debut. Therefore simply comparing them by number of seasons is highly disingenuous.

2. If you actually compare Verstappen and Hamilton with the context of age and experience instead of just “number of seasons”, then Max in 2019 was at the same point in his career as Lewis 2007.

3. Verstappen has never in his career had a car that was as good as the McLaren cars of 2007, 2008, or even 2011/2012. Verstappen’s cars have been massively inferior to Mercedes in every season he has competed against, and not capable of winning anything more than a few races per season.

Statistics without context are completely meaningless, especially in a sport as dependent on machinery as Formula 1.

Vettel absolutely blows Ricciardo and Leclerc away if we just look at numbers, but evidently that doesn’t make him a better driver.
You can only compare the results - they're the whole point of F1.

You mention 2012. Fine let's look at that, Hamilton retired through no fault of his own from 3 races where he was leading having also taken pole (indeed, he had half of all of the retirements that the top 5 in the championship suffered). Add those three wins back in and Hamilton would have taken the 2012 title. But we don't do "woulda, coulda, shoulda" because they don't count in the points table.

In those years where he was in supposedly good cars, he out qualified his team mate every year. Every year. He was only beaten in the races won stakes once and that was in 2013 by Rosberg. Otherwise he matched or beat his team mate every year.

Is Max the fastest guy out there? Very possibly. Is he the best F1 driver on the grid at the moment? No, he isn't. That would be Hamilton. Can Max become the best F1 driver on the grid? Yes, of course. But he'll need to beat others to that moniker. Being fast isn't enough - ask any number of fast guys over the years.
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Phil
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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Kingshark wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 06:33
As for Verstappen, we will have to wait and see on that one. He is still only 23 years old and has an entire career ahead of him. In my view he is a bigger talent Hamilton.
The thing that irks me about Verstappen, is that the only reference anyone has about the ability of a driver, is his direct performance against his team-mate. And considering that, the only driver he's driven against I rate as a somewhat known quantity is Ricciardo (who himself fared well against Seb in 2014) and Sainz. All the others have been subpar at best, so the whole record of beating his team-mates is as impressive as it has been for George Russel.

What I also think goes against Verstappen is that he seems to have quite a bit of favorable treatment at RedBull (for good reason, one has to say). But it still taints the picture somewhat, as much as it did Vettel when he was driving and dominating with RedBull back in the days.

Even so, it's indisputable that Verstappen is an extremely talented driver and in the last two season, he has also taken on the role as a teamleader impressively and delivered consistent and strong performance for the team with little to few mistakes. He is also very strong in cars that are difficult to drive and this is further underlined in the wet where he has historically performed above average. In fact, the only other driver on the current grid which I would attribute the same level of similar traits and talent is Hamilton, who has performed just as strongly in the wet and as consistent over the years even in bad cars. Small exception being that Hamilton has faced far stronger team-mates without the luxury of receiving beneficial treatment in any of his years or teams he has raced. But that would be comparing a 13 year career spanning two teams with a 6 year one at a single team.

Also the fact that Verstappen pretty much jumped into F1 without the luxury of having years of racing works for him, not against him. He is way more mature as a result of driving F1 for 6 years than any other driver jumping into a hot seat and being measured against a driver widely regarded as one of the best and a two times WDC champion to boot. Verstappen's biggest advantage is that he could easily become the driver with the most years in F1, given how early he entered. In fact, I see him as the only other driver with a real shot of coming close to Hamiltons records - given the right car and circumstance. He is only 23 years of age and could be easily looking at another 12-13 seasons until he reaches the age of Hamilton has now as the record holder of most stats with that many races and experience under his belt already.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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