Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
User avatar
Moore77
7
Joined: 29 Apr 2019, 12:03

Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
25 Dec 2020, 14:40
Moore77 wrote:
25 Dec 2020, 06:22
PlatinumZealot wrote:
25 Dec 2020, 02:17


The greatest of all time doesn't really have to fight hard when most of his opponents are so easily defeated. Isn't it obvious? In the cars of the same speed he saw off Alonso, Button twice, Nico three times, and Vettel twice.
I am really waiting for RedBull to come good next year just for another fight.... But i would be equaly happy for another dominant year. All the fighting in the past has me preferring easier weekends.
When did he "see off" Vettel in the "cars of same speed" twice? If you are trying to sell off 2018 as "equal cars", then go back and look how dominant W09 was for two third of the 2018. It was only on par for first one third.
He ended on equal points with Alonso in 2007, who was driving for a team that was against him and FIA observer was placed to see if he was getting equal treatment, which in itself points to doubts of his machinery. That's not "seeing off".
If anything a great driver of Hamilton's caliber is simply picking up wins and championships from super market currently with that dominant machinery, which only enhances the "success" factor, not "greatness". It points to the greatness of Mercedes team who are building such great machines.

By his own admission Hamilton never liked testing and he only realized in 2018 that, "he needed testing" to understand tyres. So, one can easily say, it was Mercedes building cars without their star driver providing a great deal of feedback by testing it.
Testing is mainly to get the car reliable and correct any glaring handling problems fir the first race. The most important part is giving feedback once the racing starts. In this sense there is a very strong record of "developing" cars, especislly divas like in 2009 where he adamantly pushed the team to copy the outwash front wing, and in 2012 and 2017 for example with car balance corrections. His cars have always came out at the end of the year as sweet handling cars. Even George Russell commented at how balanced and sweet driving Hamilton had developed the handling to be over the years as lead driver. And what have Vettel and Max produced in their cars? Buck-wild rodeo mules that one of them can't even get to grips with his own creation and the other is the only one who can drive it (sometimes when he's no understeering into the barriers)... It is amazing the little inputs a driver can make to a cars long term "DNA".
Can you provide some material evidence for your claim, "he adamantly pushed the team to copy the outwash front wing"? It's a first that i have heard.
Gangdom: Pom, Tom, Loverboy, Boomer.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
559
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

Post

Ok. Have to search the archives on that specific front wing development.. But i will provide some mp4-24 quotes till then..


How he didnt have input into 2009 until later on... Then he made sure th 2010 car had the characteristics he needed. (remeber this is a driver in only his third year).
I've had a very close eye on the car (2010 car) since it started development back in September or so, and I've had a huge amount of input into it," resumed the eleven-time grand prix-winner. "Every year I seem to have more-and-more input into the car. Last year I actually didn't have that much [pre-season] input into it thank goodness, but through the year I obviously had a lot of input into it and it got better and better. With this one, I was at the factory quite a lot; obviously I'm not an engineer, but I was giving them direction regarding where I felt the car was meant to be going. I'm very excited to see the end result and to get in the car at the first test and see how it feels.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Racing Green in 2028

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
559
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

Post

Lewis Hamilton developing the MP4-24

Its no surprise that Hamilton’s infectious enthusiasm is most apparent when he’s talking about what he knows and loves best: being a racing driver. And, to his mind, being the most complete racing driver out there.

The early part of the close season is an annual watershed within an F1 team, when fresh hope once more springs eternal. “It’s probably the most exciting part of the year for me” says Hamilton. “This year at least ...” he adds with a twinkle in his eye. “I go down to and look at the new car and I’m excited when I look at it.” But don’t all new cars look good in November? He laughs. “I don’t look at it and say, ‘That’s a world beater.’ I think ‘How can I make it better?’ and I literally try to work like an engineer.”
This level of involvement is rare; its one thing to have a driver who can give good feedback and who galvanises the team. But another entirely to have on who wants to get down to nitty-gritty of what the designers do. It’s a risk too...

“I spend a lot of time with my aerodynamicists, questioning them, and I’m sure they look at me and go, ‘He’s just a driver, what’s he talking about?’” smiles Lewis. “But I have a proven understanding of the engineering of my car. This year, I was responsible for one of the upgrades that brought us three points of downforce in Spa. We didn’t really perform that weekend, but it stayed on the carfor the rest of the year and it helped. It was something I forced and got put on the car, and it was better, and it was great. You know, I was going to put my signature on it...”

And regarding the 2010 car he says a few interesting this but this jumps off the page:

“I can get away with asking the questions because I am the driver. With some things they’ll say, ‘Actually, your right,’ and I’ve got to continue doing that. I really feel I’m having more input into my car than others are in their car in other teams.”
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Racing Green in 2028

User avatar
raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

Post

Link please!
失败者找理由,成功者找方法

JordanFiveOh
JordanFiveOh
11
Joined: 02 Feb 2015, 16:04
Location: Texas

Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

Post

This is a pretty good interview.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... erview-f1/

Deepl translation:

Seventh World Cup title, new contract, campaigns for more diversity: Lewis Hamilton has already said enough about these issues. We asked him about his work behind the scenes. Hamilton told us how the Mercedes became a car that is also good in slow corners.

How can someone who is almost perfect improve?

Hamilton: I can't remember every single year that I drove in Formula 1. But 2020 feels like the season in which I drove at the highest level on average. On the one hand that is the natural progress, although you can't always get it perfect. The difference from before was that the effects of the Corona pandemic gave us more time to reflect on our mistakes. Last year I drove strong races, but was not so good in the qualifying. So I went into this season with the aim of working on my weaknesses without giving up my strengths. I managed to get better in the qualifying, but I also improved in the race. That came as a surprise for me.

What did you change?

Hamilton: We have the same tyres as in 2019, I have learned to use them better. I now also understand the technical side of the car better, the car set-up. There are so many settings on these cars that it is easy to forget anything. And then, for example, you didn't try out all possible differential settings until the qualifying round. You are always running out of time somehow. In the end you are pushed into a quick decision. We have become more efficient, which is also due to the communication with my crew.

So is there anything at all to improve for 2021?

Hamilton: It's getting harder and harder. And it's becoming easier and easier to let things go badly if you let certain things go badly. Every athlete arrives at some point where the only thing he can do is to make adjustments in detail. I do not stand still. I know what I have to do to bring myself into the best possible position mentally and physically. Then it is a matter of recognising the things that can go even better.

You are the master of tyre management. Did that come naturally, or was there an enlightenment at some point?

Hamilton: I am aware of the importance of tyre management since my GP2 days. Nothing fundamental has changed in my driving style. Taking care of the tyres has not only something to do with your driving style. It also depends on what the team makes of it. When I was at McLaren, I put pressure on the team, gave them my ideas about tyre pressures and temperatures, but they never really listened. I wanted to change that at Mercedes.

At the beginning, it was also a struggle to try different things. You can design a car, you can work out a good car set-up, but the biggest contribution to lap times is the tyres and how you get the most out of them on a lap and at a distance. There are things like the set-up or the aero balance that influence that. I've been pushing how I want the aero-balance to be. Since 2014 we have been changing it step by step in my desired direction. The engineers have their simulations, which calculate what the best vehicle balance should look like. But these simulations will never be able to do what I can do as a driver.

I have the feeling for the car on my side. I have also learned a lot through the process of telling the team what I want and thinking creatively. It is a give and take. And when you get a good result, you have the right argument on your side. Then you can say: Look here, let's try something, even if it sounds crazy. That made us better as a team.

Does working with the engineers on a car make the big drivers?

Hamilton: As a young driver, you don't understand how Michael Schumacher was able to put together such a successful package with Ferrari at the time, or how I am now with Mercedes. Half believe that I am simply lucky enough to sit in a good car. Today I appreciate what Michael did back then. You have to be at the helm to steer this group of smart, determined and creative people in a direction of development so that the car will eventually harmonise perfectly with the driver.

Is there a standard process of continuous improvement?

Hamilton: On average I meet with my team every week to discuss the situation. At my request this group has been enlarged. I also always know which direction we are going with the next car. In the past, it often happened that the aerodynamicists told me in the wind tunnel what problems they wanted to eliminate and what their next steps on the car would be. From time to time I had to tell them: This is not our problem. This direct conversation was always more important to me. I didn't want to hear at second hand what the aerodynamics engineers were planning. Far too much is lost.

At the end of the year I tell my boys that they deserve to enjoy the success, but that we have to talk about the critical points on the car first. Then we also talk about how we can improve our communication. Whether we should meet more often or less often. Or we go through our checklist and I tell them This point is not so important, but you should put the one higher on the list. Let's make better use of the five minutes we gain by doing this.

What has been improved on the 2019 car following your criticism?

Hamilton: Engineers often think they know everything better. Some may not like listening to the driver. At least that was the case with McLaren. With Mercedes it's different. I don't go to the engineers and tell them Do this, do that. I say, hey, there's something wrong here, we can do something better. Then they think about it and come back and ask: How about we do it like this? So we work together step by step.

An example: We have the longest car in the field. The funny thing is: none of the other teams have copied us, and we win most of the races. They are so caught up in their concept that they don't want to break out of it. The length gives us outstanding downforce, but it also makes the car less agile. Last year our car was good in fast and medium fast corners, but not in slow ones. During the winter tests we still saw a similar tendency. I put pressure on us to change the car's set-up to deal with this problem. And it has improved without giving too much away. We no longer have the problem of turning the car fast.

Does the front axle bite better?

Hamilton: I always wanted cars that react well on the front axle. But with these tyres there are limits. If you go beyond that, the tyres get too hot. So you can only react mechanically at one end of the car up to a certain point without deteriorating the other end. It is like a swing. Last year our car was very strong at the rear. So we had much more understeer. This year, with the aero-balance we went a bit more to the rear, which gave us more freedom mechanically at the front. The car now behaves better in the slow corners with more steering angle and rolling behaviour.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

User avatar
Moore77
7
Joined: 29 Apr 2019, 12:03

Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
26 Dec 2020, 01:18
Lewis Hamilton developing the MP4-24
Text
That doesn't anywhere talk about him being adamant in having an outwash front wing for MP4-24. More like usual things drivers do, nothing really specific.
Gangdom: Pom, Tom, Loverboy, Boomer.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
559
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

Post

Moore77 wrote:
26 Dec 2020, 04:38
PlatinumZealot wrote:
26 Dec 2020, 01:18
Lewis Hamilton developing the MP4-24
Text
That doesn't anywhere talk about him being adamant in having an outwash front wing for MP4-24. More like usual things drivers do, nothing really specific.
Oh don't u worry... I have a good memory.. Just haven't found the sourc again. It was something on the front wing he wanted to put his name on. Anyway... Goes to show that his technical understanding of mechanics is quite good.

There was a video of him and Button working on the car and Button was like a fish out of water with the tools whereas Hamilton was a natural. It may have someyhing to do with how good a driver is at setup.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Racing Green in 2028

Kingshark
Kingshark
0
Joined: 26 May 2014, 05:41

Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
23 Dec 2020, 02:27
Kingshark wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 06:33

Hamilton won 1 title in 7 years in the V8 era. Successful? Sure, but not dominant. Mercedes dominance in the hybrid era has given Hamilton an aura of invincibility that is mostly unwarranted.

As for Verstappen, we will have to wait and see on that one. He is still only 23 years old and has an entire career ahead of him. In my view he is a bigger talent Hamilton. Will that translate into incredible success? Depends if he is lucky enough to end up in the best cars.
Remember....
Max was pretty close to Sainz in his first year.
Max got beaten by Daniel two years in a row.

How do you compare that to Lewis in his first years? No comparison basically. One can argue that Max is less talented and more a manufactured soldier. Raised from birth by a F1 driver father to serve one purpose only. To dominate when he gets to F1.

Did you watch the Max Verstappen documentary? It is in Dutch though... But.. Watch it!
Hamilton was 22 and joined Formula 1 after 5 years in cars, thousands of miles of testing.
Verstappen was 17 and joined Formula 1 after one year in cars, almost zero testing.

Not even remotely comparable.

Verstappen was 19 years old when he lost to prime Ricciardo in the same car. At that age, Hamilton finished 5th in Formula 3 Euroseries. That gives you some context.

Kingshark
Kingshark
0
Joined: 26 May 2014, 05:41

Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

Post

Phil wrote:
22 Dec 2020, 13:00
Kingshark wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 06:33
As for Verstappen, we will have to wait and see on that one. He is still only 23 years old and has an entire career ahead of him. In my view he is a bigger talent Hamilton.
The thing that irks me about Verstappen, is that the only reference anyone has about the ability of a driver, is his direct performance against his team-mate. And considering that, the only driver he's driven against I rate as a somewhat known quantity is Ricciardo (who himself fared well against Seb in 2014) and Sainz. All the others have been subpar at best, so the whole record of beating his team-mates is as impressive as it has been for George Russel.

What I also think goes against Verstappen is that he seems to have quite a bit of favorable treatment at RedBull (for good reason, one has to say). But it still taints the picture somewhat, as much as it did Vettel when he was driving and dominating with RedBull back in the days.

Even so, it's indisputable that Verstappen is an extremely talented driver and in the last two season, he has also taken on the role as a teamleader impressively and delivered consistent and strong performance for the team with little to few mistakes. He is also very strong in cars that are difficult to drive and this is further underlined in the wet where he has historically performed above average. In fact, the only other driver on the current grid which I would attribute the same level of similar traits and talent is Hamilton, who has performed just as strongly in the wet and as consistent over the years even in bad cars. Small exception being that Hamilton has faced far stronger team-mates without the luxury of receiving beneficial treatment in any of his years or teams he has raced. But that would be comparing a 13 year career spanning two teams with a 6 year one at a single team.
Sergio Perez is easily as good as Valtteri Bottas, so next season will give us a pretty good indication of how good Verstappen is relative to Hamilton. If he outperforms Perez by a large margin, larger than Hamilton-Bottas, then it pretty much confirms to me that Verstappen is more talented than Hamilton, because I rate Perez higher than Bottas.

Also the fact that Verstappen pretty much jumped into F1 without the luxury of having years of racing works for him, not against him. He is way more mature as a result of driving F1 for 6 years than any other driver jumping into a hot seat and being measured against a driver widely regarded as one of the best and a two times WDC champion to boot. Verstappen's biggest advantage is that he could easily become the driver with the most years in F1, given how early he entered. In fact, I see him as the only other driver with a real shot of coming close to Hamiltons records - given the right car and circumstance. He is only 23 years of age and could be easily looking at another 12-13 seasons until he reaches the age of Hamilton has now as the record holder of most stats with that many races and experience under his belt already.
Leclerc could easily smash Hamilton’s records with the right car. Russell could smash them. Verstappen could smash them. Or none of them could get close because FIA won’t allow another team to dominate like Mercedes did ever again. Records are 90% car and 10% driver, so no one really knows what will happen in the future.

Also, Verstappen earned the right to jump into Formula 1 at a young age because his karting career absolutely blows Hamilton and Leclerc out of the water. He wasn’t gifted an early career start, he earned it by being a truly prodigious teenager.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
593
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

Post

Kingshark wrote:
27 Dec 2020, 20:27

Also, Verstappen earned the right to jump into Formula 1 at a young age because his karting career absolutely blows Hamilton and Leclerc out of the water. He wasn’t gifted an early career start, he earned it by being a truly prodigious teenager.
Max started karts at 4 years old, Charles and Lewis at 8 years old. So Max definitely was "gifted an early start".

His father obviously decided to do karts for longer rather than switch to cars. Perhaps because it was cheaper, perhaps because it meant he could out-spend the opposition. No idea why they decided to take the route they did. But having an ex-F1 driver for a father will definitely have helped get doors opened once the step up was taken.

All you can say about Max's early career compared to other drivers, is that it was different. It was not traditional, no progression through the series.

The top guys are all amazing drivers. We will never know who is better between them - never! - because they'll never be in the same car with the same conditions etc.

Moore77 will no doubt be disgusted that I have dared to post an opinion, but I would like to point out that I've said before that Max is extremely fast and will win big in the future. Quite why others get away with down-saying drivers in order to "big up" their preferred driver is beyond me.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

User avatar
NathanOlder
48
Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 10:05
Location: Kent

Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

Post

Kingshark wrote:
27 Dec 2020, 20:27

Sergio Perez is easily as good as Valtteri Bottas, so next season will give us a pretty good indication of how good Verstappen is relative to Hamilton. If he outperforms Perez by a large margin, larger than Hamilton-Bottas, then it pretty much confirms to me that Verstappen is more talented than Hamilton, because I rate Perez higher than Bottas.
Wait what? If Perez doesn't get near Max, that means Max is more talented than Lewis?

We could argue that Perez won't get near Max anyway, as Ricciardo was on Max's level, and Ricciardo had easily beat Ocon, who appeared to be on Perez level. Drivers in different cars perform differently, its very car dependent. If it doesn't matter what the cars drive like for comparisons, then we already have an answer. Lewis better than Bottas in same car, Bottas better than Ricciardo in same car, Ricciardo better than Max in same car. All hard facts.

But in reality we all know Bottas isn't as strong as Max or Lewis.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC

Kingshark
Kingshark
0
Joined: 26 May 2014, 05:41

Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
27 Dec 2020, 21:33
Kingshark wrote:
27 Dec 2020, 20:27

Also, Verstappen earned the right to jump into Formula 1 at a young age because his karting career absolutely blows Hamilton and Leclerc out of the water. He wasn’t gifted an early career start, he earned it by being a truly prodigious teenager.
Max started karts at 4 years old, Charles and Lewis at 8 years old. So Max definitely was "gifted an early start".

His father obviously decided to do karts for longer rather than switch to cars. Perhaps because it was cheaper, perhaps because it meant he could out-spend the opposition. No idea why they decided to take the route they did. But having an ex-F1 driver for a father will definitely have helped get doors opened once the step up was taken.

All you can say about Max's early career compared to other drivers, is that it was different. It was not traditional, no progression through the series.

The top guys are all amazing drivers. We will never know who is better between them - never! - because they'll never be in the same car with the same conditions etc.

Moore77 will no doubt be disgusted that I have dared to post an opinion, but I would like to point out that I've said before that Max is extremely fast and will win big in the future. Quite why others get away with down-saying drivers in order to "big up" their preferred driver is beyond me.
Formula 1 is gradually heading towards more of a spec series (obviously never complete spec). The budget cap has been implemented to stop Mercedes and Ferrari from spending double or triple what midfield teams spend on car development. The windtunnel regulations are designed to indirectly punish the best teams by giving them fewer hours to develop their car. This is all done to close the up the grid. There’s even rumours of an engine freeze with converging performance.

This leads to a rather uncomfortable question:

Imagine if because of the rule changes I stated above, Formula 1 becomes a far more competitive sport after 2022 where the differences between cars much smaller than we see today. Will Hamilton’s accomplishments be diminished because he won 7 of his 8 world titles in an era of Mercedes dominance?

The favourite argument from Hamilton fans to diminish Schumacher’s accomplishments is by pointing out that his teammates were lapdogs. If Verstappen/Russell/Leclerc/whoever win 5-6 world titles in an era where the cars are very closely matched, I can almost guarantee you that Mercedes dominance will be used as the primary stick to beat Hamilton’s legacy with. I can see it happen from a mile away.

I have seen it happen in other sports. Messi fans mock Pele’s accomplishments all the time because Pele played against “farmers”.

User avatar
NathanOlder
48
Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 10:05
Location: Kent

Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

Post

Hamilton fans dont diminish Schumachers records. Most if not all respect Schumachers records.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC

Kingshark
Kingshark
0
Joined: 26 May 2014, 05:41

Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

Post

NathanOlder wrote:
27 Dec 2020, 22:11
Hamilton fans dont diminish Schumachers records. Most if not all respect Schumachers records.
Depends on where you go. On Reddit, there is a legion of Hamilton fans who have made it their personal quest to diminish Schumacher and acclaim Hamilton as the GOAT. This forum is obviously more mature.

I do believe that Hamilton’s legacy will suffer because of Mercedes dominance. It will be the primary stick used to beat him with by younger fans in the future, like how lapdog teammates are for Schumacher.

User avatar
NathanOlder
48
Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 10:05
Location: Kent

Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

Post

Kingshark wrote:
27 Dec 2020, 22:21
NathanOlder wrote:
27 Dec 2020, 22:11
Hamilton fans dont diminish Schumachers records. Most if not all respect Schumachers records.
Depends on where you go. On Reddit, there is a legion of Hamilton fans who have made it their personal quest to diminish Schumacher and acclaim Hamilton as the GOAT. This forum is obviously more mature.

I do believe that Hamilton’s legacy will suffer because of Mercedes dominance. It will be the primary stick used to beat him with by younger fans in the future, like how lapdog teammates are for Schumacher.
Were not on reddit though, so don't put fans here in with people from other sites.

I think the only reason we hear about lapdogs for Michael is because at the moment Ham and MSC are almost completely equal in stats so its being used to separate the 2. For me the difference between the 2 is the drastic measures Michael went to to win. 94, 97 and 06. We've never seen Lewis do anything like that, so thats what places Lewis higher in my opinion.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC