2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[f1316]

I am comparing to Charles. As for LH what we have been hearing very regularly these days is him talking about chosing the wrong setup while GR got it right. Coming from a 7WDC, I sometimes question if LH can contribute much to Ferrari on setup and development.

I’m loathe to get drawn into any Sainz vs Leclerc debates - really all I care about is Ferrari - but I don’t agree that Sainz has better racecraft. I think he’s a smart, thinking driver but lacks an edge in pace and is usually slower over a stint and not quite as good with measured aggression in overtakes/defence as Charles (although he’s certainly not at all bad on the offensive side, as he showed yesterday).

If I could use an analogy: Max for me is like Michael, Charles is like Hakkinen and Carlos is like Coulthard. It’s possible that Mika was a slightly better qualifier than Michael (possible not clear - same with Max/Charles) but Michael could do those quali laps throughout an entire race and with rarely an error. Mika, on the other hand, was massively fast and could fly in a fast car that he liked, but almost through away a title to Irvine due to mistakes (I feel this way about Charles - give him the right car and he could beat Max to a title but Max will almost maximise more and make fewer mistake). Coulthard had his days when he beat Mika and was a genuinely top racing driver; he wasn’t *quite* in the elite group though and it showed over time against first Mika and then Kimi.

Obviously these analogies only go so far - they’re all different people - but it’s how I see the basics of this conversation fwiw.

I am biased, but I think you are being quite harsh on Charles here... I really don't think there is much between the two, just Max having a much better car than the rest of the field allowing him to not really be challenged. You only make mistakes when under pressure as an F1 driver, something we saw Max do in 2021 when Lewis was closing in.

Not meaning to be harsh on Charles - I’m actually a big fan of his. The comparison is vs a two time world champion and I think he has at least that much potential. Max appears to be on course to be one of the all time greats - and in that respect he’s the Schumacher of his era, it would seem - but maybe I’ll be wrong and he’s more of a Vettel (dominant in a car that suits him to a T).

[SoulPancake13]

I’m loathe to get drawn into any Sainz vs Leclerc debates - really all I care about is Ferrari - but I don’t agree that Sainz has better racecraft. I think he’s a smart, thinking driver but lacks an edge in pace and is usually slower over a stint and not quite as good with measured aggression in overtakes/defence as Charles (although he’s certainly not at all bad on the offensive side, as he showed yesterday).

If I could use an analogy: Max for me is like Michael, Charles is like Hakkinen and Carlos is like Coulthard. It’s possible that Mika was a slightly better qualifier than Michael (possible not clear - same with Max/Charles) but Michael could do those quali laps throughout an entire race and with rarely an error. Mika, on the other hand, was massively fast and could fly in a fast car that he liked, but almost through away a title to Irvine due to mistakes (I feel this way about Charles - give him the right car and he could beat Max to a title but Max will almost maximise more and make fewer mistake). Coulthard had his days when he beat Mika and was a genuinely top racing driver; he wasn’t *quite* in the elite group though and it showed over time against first Mika and then Kimi.

Obviously these analogies only go so far - they’re all different people - but it’s how I see the basics of this conversation fwiw.

I am biased, but I think you are being quite harsh on Charles here... I really don't think there is much between the two, just Max having a much better car than the rest of the field allowing him to not really be challenged. You only make mistakes when under pressure as an F1 driver, something we saw Max do in 2021 when Lewis was closing in.

Not meaning to be harsh on Charles - I’m actually a big fan of his. The comparison is vs a two time world champion and I think he has at least that much potential. Max appears to be on course to be one of the all time greats - and in that respect he’s the Schumacher of his era, it would seem - but maybe I’ll be wrong and he’s more of a Vettel (dominant in a car that suits him to a T).

I understand, but I don't think it's the case that Verstappen is a Vettel either. If you want to hear my real opinion...

I think that we are being absolutely robbed of watching two all time greats talents race. The beginning of 2022 showed it, but I truly believe these two are just in a different class to the field(now that Alonso and Lewis are not at peak performance of course). If you put Charles in the Red Bull, we'd be getting fights at the front every weekend and I don't think it would be that clear who would win given they both have similar luck. Of course, this is my bias showing through, but this is Charles's 7th season... Max won his first in his 7th season. They will both have a long way to go, but Charles kind of matches Verstappen's career to a tee(except Charles last season had horrid luck). I see a driver in Charles who has matured immeasurably(as said by Marc Gene - old Charles would have let his emotions get the best of him) and is ironing out his mistakes. His consistency the last year has actually been quite ridiculous considering the situations he's found himself in.

[JPower]

We would be having discussion of Leclerc vs Sainz, because they are close enough to have them.

You're taking about mistakes when the "#1 driver" should've been on pole but didn't make it happen. Interesting.

They are close, but the difference is obviously clear, no?

Leclerc should have been on pole? Maybe, he had the speed, which Sainz didn't (apropos the point above). How many points did this cost the team exactly?

Maybe, he made a mistake. According to your standards, unacceptable.

[JPower]

We wouldn't be having any discussions if it was just me, but clearly it's not just me. Poor starts, rookie spins/crashes in multiple races, "my priority is to beat my team mate" are some of the reasons some Tifosi are dissapointed with Sainz. Just don't say there's no difference in mentality between the two of them, it's clear as day for all who want to see...

We would be having discussion of Leclerc vs Sainz, because they are close enough to have them.

You're taking about mistakes when the "#1 driver" should've been on pole but didn't make it happen. Interesting.

Honestly, looking at data though, it isn't really close. If Charles should have been on pole, what does that say about Sainz who never even had that pace? Throughout Carlos's stint here, Charles has been on average 0.218% faster in the races, 0.155% faster in qualy. Race head to head is 36-18 and qualy head to head is 40-17. And yes, Sainz's bad start is a mistake. If he got a better start and kept P4, P2 would have been possible for him imo.

What do you mean what does it say? Leclerc is the quicker driver. You won’t see me say otherwise in any post in all of the years I’ve been on this forum.

However, if we’re holding people to the standards set, which apparently is no mistakes, Leclerc should’ve been on pole. According to some, a mortal sin for a Ferrari-level driver.

Was that raised at any point before I said anything? No. Why? Pretty clear. Its il Predestinato.

Anyway, most reasonable, objective people would recognize that Sainz had a fairly good weekend and Leclerc had an unfortunate one. Trying to spin all of this bullshit about mentality, post race interviews, whose father did what, etc as a proxy for which driver is better is pure Stephen A Smith level hot take nonsense. Bottom line, both drivers have represented Ferrari well and I think will continue to do so this season.

[CHT]

Charles is like a Prince while Sainz is like a Knight. Charles is all about refinement elegance and skills, while Sainz is about strength, bravery and determination
I find them a good pairing for Ferrari, so I am not sure if it is the right call for Ferrari to replace Sainz.

In wine terms, I would say Charles is like Burgundy Pinot Noir and Sainz is like right bank Pomerol, both are brilliant.

[Sphere3758]

We would be having discussion of Leclerc vs Sainz, because they are close enough to have them.

You're taking about mistakes when the "#1 driver" should've been on pole but didn't make it happen. Interesting.

They are close, but the difference is obviously clear, no?

Leclerc should have been on pole? Maybe, he had the speed, which Sainz didn't (apropos the point above). How many points did this cost the team exactly?

Maybe, he made a mistake. According to your standards, unacceptable.

Everyone makes mistakes in qualifying. Max frequently messes up his q3 second runs too, just go look at the last 10 qualifyings or so .. you will find at least 3 instances


Charles is an incredible qualifier, the best on the grid but Max is very very close.

Sainz just does not belong in the same conversation. Charles averages a pole a little over every 4 races at Ferrari (don’t even know the number of front rows tbh)

[Vanja #66]

Maybe, he made a mistake. According to your standards, unacceptable.

Don't make stuff up, it's embarrassing

[Andres125sx]

Some day, you should explain the reason for your obsession with Sainz family, so frequently blaming and defaming both the father and the son, for no reason

I can only give you the same reason as ever, but you don't accept it because it doesn't fit your view of Sainz. He has bigger potential than he is showing, he keeps making small mistakes which tend to have big consequences and is always satisfied even when he objectively should have finished higher. In other words, he's bs-ing himslef into believing he's maximising his race, every single race. As a racer, that's not the attitude you want.

Sr has a toxic influence there, just like any other parent who fights the battles of their children and deprives them of a chance to grow. Telling children they are always the best and making up bs excuses why they didn't end up the best on a given occassion is a path diametrically opposite of success they want to achieve.

Then I´ll repeat you what I already said to you several times, but you don´t accept because it doesn´t fit your narrative

Sainz Sr. has no power at all at Ferrari, nothing, nill, none. Full stop. He´s never been part of the team, at any category, never, so please stop blaming, defaming and insulting him, it only make you look as a child who can´t accept when his favourite is defeated. Or maybe that is accurate and the problem is I consider you more mature than you really are?

About Sainz Jr. yeah I´m sure you were expecting him winning the race, sure Vanja. Please, do not mock the forum Vanja, any time Sainz beats Leclerc, you bash him. That is not because you were expecting him to finish higher exactly, but the other way around

Stop fooling the forum and/or yourself, you are unable to accept when Sainz finishes higher than Leclerc, and any time this happens, you derail and degrade the forum with aburd and nosense insults to him, and even to his father , wich is quite low, and degrade the forum to a point I can´t understand how moderators allow it

[Vanja #66]

Stop fooling the forum and/or yourself, you are unable to accept when Sainz finishes higher than Leclerc, and any time this happens, you derail and degrade the forum with aburd and nosense insults to him, and even to his father , wich is quite low, and degrade the forum to a point I can´t understand how moderators allow it

I absolutely did not expect you bothered reading my post-race reaction...

Very good race from Sainz, very poor start. If he held P4 at the start, he would have had a cleaner 1st stint and an easy P2 with the trouble Leclerc had. He's shown very good pace in the race...
***
Sainz has cut the gap to Max in half compared to last year, which is a clear sign how much progress has been made.

It's literally pointless to discuss with you since you have a predetermined opinion and always look for a fight instead of reading what other people actually write. Adios muchacho

[Andres125sx]

Charles is doing too much mistakes. I fear it can cost him a title if he have the right car one day.
And I love Charles, and he is mega fast but two many mistakes.

When was the last time he made a mistake in a race that cost him points before and after France 2022?

Miami 2023, crash on Qualifying wich obviously did cost him positions and points

Hungary 2023, speeding in the pitlane cost a 5 second penalty, loosing position with Russell

[Andres125sx]

Stop fooling the forum and/or yourself, you are unable to accept when Sainz finishes higher than Leclerc, and any time this happens, you derail and degrade the forum with aburd and nosense insults to him, and even to his father , wich is quite low, and degrade the forum to a point I can´t understand how moderators allow it

https://media1.giphy.com/media/gdX4XYo0 ... y.gif&ct=g

I absolutely did not expect you bothered reading my post-race reaction...

Very good race from Sainz, very poor start. If he held P4 at the start, he would have had a cleaner 1st stint and an easy P2 with the trouble Leclerc had. He's shown very good pace in the race...
***
Sainz has cut the gap to Max in half compared to last year, which is a clear sign how much progress has been made.

It's literally pointless to discuss with you since you have a predetermined opinion and always look for a fight instead of reading what other people actually write. Adios muchacho

Oh so we must only look at some of your messages, but we should ignore some others then? Please tell me what messages should we ignore from you, as these are exactly the opposite to that you quoted.

Sr can pay race driving lessons and pressure some people to do things Jr's way, but Sr can't buy champion mentality for Jr. Or race start skill, for that matter...

When he does one good race without losing positions at the start and without the team helping him win, I will accept his assessment of a good race as a valid assessment. I'm really sad to see Sr has so much bad influence that Jr has to bs himself after every race instead of accepting he could have done a better job and start working on doing a better job. Helicopter parenting brings nothing good.

[Andres125sx]

Anyway, most reasonable, objective people would recognize that Sainz had a fairly good weekend and Leclerc had an unfortunate one. Trying to spin all of this bullshit about mentality, post race interviews, whose father did what, etc as a proxy for which driver is better is pure Stephen A Smith level hot take nonsense. Bottom line, both drivers have represented Ferrari well and I think will continue to do so this season.

Indeed. Apart from Leclerc brake problems, wich he managed extremelly well, it´s been a great weekend for Ferrari.

Unfortunately some people only care about Leclerc results, instead of Ferrari results, so even when it´s been a great weekend for the team, they can´t stop blaming some of the driver, and even his family.

Even if he finished on the podium and show a positive attitude, but some people will never be happy if his favourite is not ahead...

[chrstphrln]

My goodness, this is tiring.
The only advantage that the Hamilton change has is that you no longer have to read this nonsensical contradiction.

Although...
With the fan base that Hamilton has, it will probably be much worse next year with the hostility and accusations if he continues to drive like he did at the weekend.

[Xyz22]

https://formu1a.uno/ferrari-a-jeddah-pi ... osteriore/

So according to Formu1a.uno Ferrari will introduce a new rear wing for Jeddah. Not clear if it's completely new or from last year though.
Considering Cardile said that they are working on changing all the rear wing specs, maybe it's a completely new one.

[scuderiabrandon]

From formu1a.uno

According to the data collected, Leclerc's performance in the first 15/20 laps was also 6 tenths per lap slower than the actual potential of his SF-24

https://formu1a.uno/ferrari-a-jeddah-pi ... osteriore/