2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

[graham.reeds]

[pantherxxx]

Even if Mercedes wins the legal battle and FIA has to admit that the SC procedure was not within the regulations, I don't think this will change the outcome of the DWC, because what is supposed to happen?
Then, in my opinion, only realistic thing to do would be to classify the race after lap 57, but article (5.4) of the 2021 F1 Sporting Regulations requires a race to be at least 305km, which would not be the case.

There are, as far as I am aware, only two exceptions to article (5.4). Namely (52.2), which states: "should for any reason the end-of-session signal be given before the leading car completed the scheduled number of laps, the race will be deemed to have finished when the leading car last crossed the Line before the signal was given", which was obviously not the case.

And article (6.5), "the 75% rule", which states: "if a race is suspended under article (50) [red flag], and cannot be resumed, [...] full points will be awarded if the leader has completed 75% or more of the original race distance", which was also not the case since the race was not suspended.

Therefore you can't just simply end a race a lap earlier if it has not been suspended. There is simply no rule which would allow shortening the race under the given circumstances. With just 57 laps, this would not be a race according to the 2021 F1 Sporting Regulations since there is no other rule which handles such a situation of shortening a race in retrospect, and the only rule which can be applied is (5.4), which requires a race to be at least 305km.

It is not stated what would happen if a race is not a race according to their own rules, but here the only logical consequence could be a nullification. Max would lose his win, but would stay DWC. Not sure if that makes anyone happier.

[Just_a_fan]

Even if Mercedes wins the legal battle and FIA has to admit that the SC procedure was not within the regulations, I don't think this will change the outcome of the DWC, because what is supposed to happen?

I wouldn't be surprised if it's more about making life difficult for the FIA and Masi, rather than an expectation of a change of result. Make Masi spend a few days sweating and worrying about whether he's going to have to face further appearances before a "court" (whichever one it goes to) over the winter break. A kind of "well you messed up our Christmas, we'll mess up yours". A bit childish if that is the intention.

It's possible that a court could order the result to stand as it was prior to the race director breaking the rules. That would obviously change the result. No idea how that would be done, however.

I think we'll have no idea until Mercedes confirm the appeal is going ahead and then seeing what it is they ask for in their appeal.

[Just_a_fan]

I've spoken to a couple of people who have been F1 fans for years. They've cancelled their Sky F1 subscriptions and told Sky exactly why. Not sure itll worry anyone in power too much, but if enough people were annoyed by it and do the same, Sky won't be happy.

[Marty_Y]

If this is true there's little point going ahead with the appeal.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sport ... Sport.html

Lewis Hamilton hit by appeal setback as it emerges Mercedes CAN'T take their claim to the Court of Arbitration for Sport - meaning their only chance to overturn Abu Dhabi race result is in front of a panel appointed by the FIA
Mercedes had two appeals rejected over the controversial Abu Dhabi GP result
Lewis Hamilton's team are still to confirm if they will launch a further appeal
Should an appeal fail, they won't be able to take their claim to the highest court
Mercedes have just one chance of overturning Max Verstappen's title victory
By MARTIN SAMUEL - SPORT FOR THE DAILY MAIL

PUBLISHED: 22:31, 13 December 2021 | UPDATED: 23:12, 13 December 2021

"Mercedes will get one shot at overturning the race result and Max Verstappen's drivers' championship title - and will not be able to take their claim to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

FIA rules, that all Formula One teams sign up for, give the governing body's International Court of Appeal in Paris as the only arbiter for settling disputes, meaning Mercedes will have to convince a panel appointed by the FIA to find against the FIA."

[f1jcw]

If this is true there's little point going ahead with the appeal.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sport ... Sport.html

Lewis Hamilton hit by appeal setback as it emerges Mercedes CAN'T take their claim to the Court of Arbitration for Sport - meaning their only chance to overturn Abu Dhabi race result is in front of a panel appointed by the FIA
Mercedes had two appeals rejected over the controversial Abu Dhabi GP result
Lewis Hamilton's team are still to confirm if they will launch a further appeal
Should an appeal fail, they won't be able to take their claim to the highest court
Mercedes have just one chance of overturning Max Verstappen's title victory
By MARTIN SAMUEL - SPORT FOR THE DAILY MAIL

PUBLISHED: 22:31, 13 December 2021 | UPDATED: 23:12, 13 December 2021

"Mercedes will get one shot at overturning the race result and Max Verstappen's drivers' championship title - and will not be able to take their claim to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

FIA rules, that all Formula One teams sign up for, give the governing body's International Court of Appeal in Paris as the only arbiter for settling disputes, meaning Mercedes will have to convince a panel appointed by the FIA to find against the FIA."

It can go to CAS if they both agree to it.
For FIA it’d be a better look.

[f1jcw]

I've spoken to a couple of people who have been F1 fans for years. They've cancelled their Sky F1 subscriptions and told Sky exactly why. Not sure itll worry anyone in power too much, but if enough people were annoyed by it and do the same, Sky won't be happy.

Well, I only pay for a Now subscription now and again with coupons. I was cancelling anyway now season over, but I put in the reason for cancelling it was due to FIA making it no longer a sport lol

[Marty_Y]

[diffuser]

Also a keen watcher would notice the marshalls were given the hurry up to pin up that armco.
Something was really off. The track wasnt even fully cleared and the barrier also was not repaired for safety. It stinks.

But onto the race. As what cannot be erased is the stain of this title year. It will never go away. Sad for Max that his title is stained, but he can blame his team principal and Masi for that. I think outside of Lewis haters and dutch fans everyone knows that a robbery tool place.

Saiz snatch P5 from lando in the championship.
I think it was well deserved because mclaren just ran out of steam in the last 5 races. It's really difficult to understand.
He beat leclerc as well. Leclerc who is supposed to be ferrari's #1 wonderboy got beat by the new comer! Sainz beat him on clinical driving and race management.
So i am expecting a heated battle next year between these two.
I dont know if this result was also a part of the Masi mess as i was not watching the ferraris. But Leclerc may have made too many errors this year.
Norris just lost all steam and Riciardo started to look like he was on par with him.

I think only die-hard fans of Hamilton, like yourself, will see this title as tainted. Just like some people have conspiracy theories about Glock and Interlagos in 2008. Or Vettel in 2010 on the last GP. For die-hard fans of 1 driver it is never understandable. For 90-95% of the people there is no difference.

People with less bias saw that Verstappen was the better driver over the season. A worthy WDC for Verstappen. It will not be his last either. So better get used to it.

I'm not a Hamilton fan. In fact I am an Alonso fan. Which kind of makes me Hamilton hater. Yet, I feel that Max didn't win the race. I will not say he didn't deserve the WDC, he is good enough to deserve it. He just didn't earn it on Sunday. The faster car and driver was placed by Masi into 2nd place. I guarantee you it will be remembered. In fact I bet it will matter to Max too. I bet if he ever wins another WDC, he will say so.

[diffuser]

If this is true there's little point going ahead with the appeal.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sport ... Sport.html

Lewis Hamilton hit by appeal setback as it emerges Mercedes CAN'T take their claim to the Court of Arbitration for Sport - meaning their only chance to overturn Abu Dhabi race result is in front of a panel appointed by the FIA
Mercedes had two appeals rejected over the controversial Abu Dhabi GP result
Lewis Hamilton's team are still to confirm if they will launch a further appeal
Should an appeal fail, they won't be able to take their claim to the highest court
Mercedes have just one chance of overturning Max Verstappen's title victory
By MARTIN SAMUEL - SPORT FOR THE DAILY MAIL

PUBLISHED: 22:31, 13 December 2021 | UPDATED: 23:12, 13 December 2021

"Mercedes will get one shot at overturning the race result and Max Verstappen's drivers' championship title - and will not be able to take their claim to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

FIA rules, that all Formula One teams sign up for, give the governing body's International Court of Appeal in Paris as the only arbiter for settling disputes, meaning Mercedes will have to convince a panel appointed by the FIA to find against the FIA."

I don't remember the last time anyone overturned something like this in court. I'm not holding my breath. But then I'm not a fan of either of the drivers so I don't really care. I'm more concerned with the sport and the reoccurrence of this and cleaning up the seamingly unending controversy race after race of 2021.

[DrDejan]

I've spoken to a couple of people who have been F1 fans for years. They've cancelled their Sky F1 subscriptions and told Sky exactly why. Not sure itll worry anyone in power too much, but if enough people were annoyed by it and do the same, Sky won't be happy.

I’m a passionate fan of F1 for many decades. I’ve seen multiple teams dominating the sport, aggressive drivers, questionable stewarding. I’ve been aware of many backroom deals, cheating, pushing the envelope development. I read almost everything original about it, pay multiple subscriptions, try to contribute to the discussions in constructive manner.
What I’ve witnessed this year is total desecration of the sport I consider as most advanced in the world. The governing body blatantly scammed us to artificially create a show. They pushed their version of the rules, which they wrote by the way, into team’s throat and scammed some for millions of dollars. Selective application of “Let them race” mirrors dictatorial PR practice when dealing with the opposition.
I will not pay for this circus. My F1TV subscription’s cancelled. It’ll stay like that until I see honest explanation and and apology to the fans and the teams. If they think my hundred bucks doesn’t matter, I hope they’ll have better relationship with their target audience. I’ll satisfy my curiosity about F1 with a YT clip of the last two laps after a questionable safety car, as I do with Nascar.

[the poster below]

I don't mean to prolong this... Well, I do a bit. But only because after scanning all the posts going over old ground I think this is new and related to the recently posted daily mail story. And from a legal perspective it's a bit interesting (to me at least).

Mercedes put out a succinct press release yesterday evening that indicated intention to appeal not just under the sporting code but also under article 10 of the judicial and disciplinary rules. Now that isn't new but some excerpts are below to point out that the FIA is distinct from the international court of appeal and that they do have the power to change things if they decide to.

CHAPTER 1 - FIA COURTS
Article 1 – Judges
1.1 The FIA Courts are the International Tribunal (IT) and the International Court of Appeal (ICA). Their respective competences are specified in Articles 5 and 9. They act totally independently from the other bodies of the FIA and the members of the FIA.

1.8 The Judges shall undertake to act with full
independence and impartiality so as to preserve the independence of the Courts. Each Judge must be and remain independent of the FIA and of the parties involved. Any member of the Courts involved in a particular case must disclose immediately any circumstance which might reasonably be regarded as potentially compromising his independence.

Article 2 – Judging panels

2.4 In the case of appeals against decisions taken by the stewards in the context of the FIA Formula One World Championship or against decisions taken by the Cost Cap Adjudication Panel (CCAP), the Judging panel shall comprise at least one judge elected on proposal of any group of five competitors of such Championship.

Article 10.10 - Decision of the ICA

10.10.2 In addition, the ICA may admit or dismiss the appeal, in whole or in part, and may decide to confirm, waive, mitigate or increase the penalty inflicted. It may annul or amend the results of a competition, but it is not empowered to order any competition to be re-run.

Article 11.3 - Right of review

11.3.2 The ICA may decide to re-examine a case, either on its own initiative or following a petition for review by either one of the parties concerned and/or a party that is directly affected by any decision handed down, or by the President of the FIA. In order to be admissible, the petition for review by a party or by the FIA must be
submitted within 12 months of the decision to be reviewed. If the decision has an influence on the result of a championship, the petition for review must be submitted before 30 November of the year in which the decision to be reviewed was initially taken.

Article 13 - Alternative Remedies
13.1 For the avoidance of doubt, nothing in these rules shall prevent any party from pursuing any right of action which it may have before any court or tribunal, subject at all times to such party having first exhausted all mechanisms of dispute resolution set out in the Statutes and regulations of the FIA.

The ICA can also arbitrate (article 9.2 won't paste properly) as mentioned earlier I believe.

So, the appeal court is independent from the FIA "according to the rules" unlike some of the lines I've read here suggesting the FIA is going to be policing itself in the appeal, and there's no potential re-running of the event unlike the somewhat analogous football example some pages back.

Oh and the right of review is arguably impossible in this scenario because I suspect these rules were written prior to having December races.

[PlatinumZealot]

I like the sound of that rule

You could also just say no unlapping after 70% of the race. But I'm ok with standing start. It would have to be a percentage cause of varying number of laps at different tracks.

I'd have preferred a red flag in this situation. Both on Fresh tyres and the fight is more equal. Still a bit unfair on Hamilton but at least it isn't massively unfair to Hamilton. As it is Masi chose a way that made certain that Hamilton would lose.

This kind of situation makes me think of the tour de france and the processional final stage, in which the winner is allowed to ride it home unchallenged.

This would have been the sporting thing to do, the ethical thing to do and the fair thing to do.

As it was, they just decided to choose their own champion. It wasn't Verstappens good luck because they chose to not let anyone unlap initially. That decision was changed (possibly by coincidence, to give the benefit of the doubt) after a Red Bull protest.

It's ugly, really ugly and I don't like F1 right now. I support Mclaren and have not been fond of Hamilton for a long time, he just tells people what they want to hear and who's favourite fans are whatever country he happens to be in at the time and his driving just inspires nothing in me. But what happened is revolting and unfair and it has put me off this sport. I'm sick of F1 and I'm sick of Horner. He and Verstappen have been win at any means possible with little respect for the sport. Weaving, forcing off the track, crying like babies as if they are the victims of the world if they are punished for indiscretions. I'm surprised Hamilton hasn't retired, this has to tear your heart out to see something like that done to you.

In the LeMans 24 hours don't they do something similar? On the lat lap the running order stands - in part as way to honour the effort put in over the entire race?

In the days of Charlie whiting he would allow a late safety car situation to complete the balance of the race towards who earned it up to that point; which is only just. I can't quite wrap my head around why the guy that dominated the race billed as "may be the best man win," was artificially placed in a position where he would lose it 99% percent due to no fault of his own? Just doesn't sit well at all.

Like a lamb to the slaughter.

[PlatinumZealot]

Like changing the rules on the floor to specifically target the low-rake cars?

It's funny you say that. The first indications were that it would hurt the high rake cars most.
You could argue that they specifically targeted high rake cars but failed.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/low- ... s/5923745/

In another thread the technical forumers did initially speculate that it would hurt high rake, but views wisely shifted after realizing that the edge vortices along the floor are not tight enough to curl under a low rake car with the floor cut back as much at it was. Then around testing people saw that it did hurt Mercedes the most.

My theory was that the FIA asked Racing point to submit their surface capture of the 2019 Mercedes car to check if any wrong-doing had occurred, then they the FIA played around with that model to see how they could hurt Mercedes the most, and that was by trimming the floor and raising the brake ducts.
I addressed this in my thread, but it was locked because it turned into a tin-foil fiesta. haha. So leave it there!

[JordanMugen]

This was a decision that favored a certain outcome.

So what? I don't have a problem with the outcome, and if Mercedes-Benz are good sports who "welcome competition" they shouldn't be fussed either.

You know. I don't even think it was gifted to Max as much as it was taken away from Lewis.

The best driver won:

Max 10 wins
Lewis 8 wins

But Spa, if Monza? I don't care.

It seems bias precludes some from being able to appreciate a Race Director merely getting lapped cars out of the way to the best of their ability. Both drivers had good fortune (e.g., Hamilton crashed at Imola and still scored 2nd place) and bad fortune (Hamilton locked up from the lead at Baku, throwing away an easy win, after Verstappen had a tyre failure). Sometimes one benefitted from safety cars and red flags, and sometimes the other did. It mostly evens out and is all part of motor racing.

Then there are reactionary calls to eliminate bunching under the safety car, eliminate lapped cars getting laps back, and convert red flagged races to aggregate time to optimise "fairness", yet the same posters didn't find this a priority just one Grand Prix beforehand!

As for the stats. 10 wins is more like 8. Spa was not driven and was gifted. And abudhabi was also gifted. These 2 had nothing to do with luck. Just pure regulator interference.

They will race again. But i suspect Something has to work out in the courts for Hamilton and the team for being robbed.

Hamilton did more amazing things in his car this year and i think reminded most fans that his racing tool set is more complete.

This is bias in the extreme. Apparently Verstappen dancing the car between the walls at Monaco to a dominant win is without talent, while Hamilton who has heavily outqualified by Bottas and then stuck behind Aston Martins & Alpha Tauris around Monte Carlo apparently showed more skill?

We can list them, but he hasnt really driven any amazing races. I think he performed as expected

Mercurial wins by Verstappen at circuits like Zandvoort are apparently discarded?!