2015 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

[nokivasara]

The tire pressure recommendation should be @ normal operating temperature, who cares about the pressure before or after that?

Different cars work the tires differently and therefore the tire temperatures probably differ between teams in any given situation?
The teams monitor the pressures and as long as the tires are within spec during the race I'd say - motor on!

What happened to Kimi in the start? Was he asleep?
Strong race from Marcus Ericsson, so close to 8th!

Hamilton is just amazing, having the best car is one thing but he really makes the best of it in every lap. He is like Schumacher during his ferrari-era...

[Moose]

One further note on exactly how the discrepancy appeared. Wolff is claiming that the FIA measured the temperature at a time when the rules would not allow it. The FIA are meant to verify the pressure before the 5 minute warning. They apparently measured it after that, hence why the blankets had already been turned off.

[Unc1eM0nty]

GP2 cars don't use tyre blankets, so I'm not sure how Mitch can complain about a test that would have been performed at ambient on his car.

And that fact is the very important difference. If you have no warmers then you measure the pressure when tyres are cold with calibrated device and you have a realiable measurement. In F1 either you should measure the pressure before tyres go into the warmers or tyres that are in warmers at stable temperature.

Disqualifications based on the pressure measured when tyre is out of the blankets is crazy. That is not a realiable nor reproducable measurement! If there was a rain that cooled down the slicks then everyone would be dsq based on the pressures registered by the telemetry.

You can dsq because of the wrong dimensions, shapes, weight, etc, but not a dynamically changing parameter such as the tyre pressure at unstable temperature.

Of course you can as long it breaks the rules - like in Raikkonen's case in Abu Dhabi '13. They failed floor deflection test after missing the part on the kerb (that's your dynamic part). Did it happen? Yes. Accident? Of course but it didn't matter. Stewards can accept or ignore any explanation and apply a penalty because measurement X is out of range. Do you think they measured gains or team's guilt? Look at this:

'"However, the stewards did not accept that the incident referred to constituted an accident, or excused failing the relevant test."
"AUTOSPORT understands that the stewards did not accept the explanation, unlike when there was a similar situation with Romain Grosjean in Hungary, because it did not feel that the incident at Turn 3 where Raikkonen ran off the track and broke the floor should be considered as accidental damage."

"The team respects the stewards' decision," team principal Eric Boullier said. "No advantage was sought or gained in the incident and the relevant part has been replaced.

"Did not feel" = interpretation. Yes, you run off track, break a floor and put the part back to cheat. It doesn't matter, hard measurement is a hard measurement.

Same here and A. difference in procedures does not work in Mercedes' favour (unknown area). B. It's safety and there's no compromises with safety, that didn't last long, did it? Just like with racing under yellow flags at Silverstone '13 it was OK and then Bianchi's accident happens. Soft explanation is all it takes to get away with anything - this is the issue here, there are rules with data, documents and then people come and explain and it goes out of the window. In Lotus' '13 case there was a visual evidence with car going off track. Evans is right his tyres were outside the range (reference point for penalties) and so was Mercedes'. They chose to ignore it based on a team and politics as always.

Sometimes you sound quite knowledgeable and make some valid points, however, I can't take anything you post seriously, it's all too tightly wound up in your anti Hamilton bile and your Mercedes conspiracy nonsense, all this hate is clouding your judgement.

Someone else quoted earlier, in the words of John Rambo ............. Let It Go !

[Tom145145]

First ever post, but long time reader!

Just heard the values for the pressures and more importantly temperatures on the Mercs:

19.2 @ 101degC for Lewis
18.4 @ 84degC for Nico

As a long time fan of F1 I find this sort of amateur behaviour from the FIA mind blowing...this coupled with Pirelli not being able to step up as a first class tire manufacturer. This all begins with the idea that tire pressure was the cause of the issues at Belgium, I don't see this as true.

The pressure minimum would be best checked on the tires at a maximum temp of 110degC 30 mins before the race and then FIA seal applied. I cannot see how the pressure mi.n can be applied while running as it is such a dynamic value and also would not be an advantage to cool to drop pressure as the compound would not perform anyway.

[Moose]

First ever post, but long time reader!

Just heard the values for the pressures and more importantly temperatures on the Mercs:

19.2 @ 101degC for Lewis
18.4 @ 84degC for Nico

So then this makes perfect sense - Nico's tyres had dropped 26°C (roughly the 22°C calculated above), and lewis's had dropped 9°C (roughly the 7°C calculated above).

I can see why the stewards declared everything all above board.

[magick]

Of course you can as long it breaks the rules - like in Raikkonen's case in Abu Dhabi '13. They failed floor deflection test after missing the part on the kerb (that's your dynamic part). Did it happen? Yes. Accident? Of course but it didn't matter. Stewards can accept or ignore any explanation and apply a penalty because measurement X is out of range. Do you think they measured gains or team's guilt?

But Mercs didn't broke any rules and all relevant measurements were WITHIN defined range! The only measurement that was out of range was the one with cold tires on the grid - I'm sure tire pressure was within the limits on the start (after warm-up circle).

... hard measurement is a hard measurement.

Yes, but this was not "a hard measurement" - that's why they concluded that more defined measuring/controlling procedure/protocol is in order.

Same here and A. difference in procedures does not work in Mercedes' favour (unknown area). B. It's safety and there's no compromises with safety, that didn't last long, did it?

Where did you get an info that Mercedes' cars were racing with "incorrect/unsafe" tire pressure? 19,5Psi criteria needs to be matched during the racing (between moment red lights went out and a checkered flag been waved).

Measuring/control protocol has not been thought trough, that's why no penalty was imposed.

Evans is right his tyres were outside the range (reference point for penalties) and so was Mercedes'. They chose to ignore it based on a team and politics as always.

You are ignoring the facts and pushing forward a highly unlikely conspiracy theory.

[i70q7m7ghw]

What an absolutely farce Pirelli has become.

Tyre pressures have always been a part of race car setup. To have talk of mandating a fixed high pressure with sealed valves or FIA controlled sensors etc. etc. etc.????!?!?!?! All because Pirelli can't build a tyre suitable for the current formula? WHAT AN ABSOLUTE JOKE.

I mean come on, what was the point in all of this tyre pressure stuff anyway, Pirelli said the cause of the blowouts in Spa was cuts in the tyres, how do high tyre pressures prevent cuts in the tyres?

The sooner Pirelli quit the sport the better. Bring back a tyre manufacturer that actually knows how to build a tyre suitable for F1.

[KeiKo403]

"Nevertheless, the Stewards recommend that the Tyre Manufacturer and the FIA hold further meetings to provide clear guidance to the teams on measurement protocols".

So basically Pirelli thought they'd teach the drivers/teams a lesson following Spa comments, threw their toys out of the pram and thought they'd show teams who's boss by making the FIA enforce what Pirelli want so they don't get anymore failures (bad PR).

Instead of thinking it through like grown ups they decided to implement the change and make it regulation without first defining any concise measuring techniques which would allow for consistent results.

In short Pirelli have made a fool out of F1 rules now and this has to stop. I'm more than happy for Pirelli to stay in F1 but they need to fight the FIA and Bernie on these ridiculous tyre compounds that degrade so quickly.

I remember that the FIA and Bernie wanted a tyre supplier to make tyres that replicated the drama and excitement of the Bridgestones in Canada that 1 year. I guess the point is that Bridgestone tyres were known for their durability and they gave one of the most exciting races because drivers could RACE on them!

This sport is wasting real talent in drivers, money from teams and sponsors and time of us dedicated fans, and why? Because they want to reproduce the random events of a single race that occurred a few years ago. You want an exciting race? Well then, give Pirelli (or whoever) the green light to actually make tyres worthy of our sport! [-o<

[Tom145145]

What an absolutely farce Pirelli has become.

Tyre pressures have always been a part of race car setup. To have talk of mandating a fixed high pressure with sealed valves or FIA controlled sensors etc. etc. etc.????!?!?!?! All because Pirelli can't build a tyre suitable for the current formula? WHAT AN ABSOLUTE JOKE.

I have had my concerns about the Pirelli tires from the moment they came back into F1, as a bit of an F1 purist I see F1 as more than gimmicks like fragile tires and DRS although in the V8/Pirelli era I can kind of see why a few gimmicks were needed as the field was much closer. But now I think we need to get back to a tire that can be pushed lap after lap.

As for the race, it wasn't a classic but I was happy to see Vettel and Massa on the podium it was a shame that Ros. retire as I like to see a clean fight for the DWC, it could switch back who knows!

[PlatinumZealot]

The initial report says "the thread surface temperatures of the left hand side rear tires of the cars.... was within the specification of the tire supplier" So the temperatures were in normal range when they took the measurements for the pressure.

That's to do with the maximum temperature allowed from the tyre blankets (they're not allowed to overheat the tyres).

Can someone work out exactly how much Rosberg's tyres must have dropped in temperature before the pressure was measured please?

1.1psi ~5% low, so roughly 5% low in absolute temperature, ~20 degrees down from 110'C

What about absolute pressure? If you use absolute pressure you get 3.2% Which translates to 12 degrees Celcius.

Not that this is the actual temperature of the air in the tyres anyway.

[PlatinumZealot]

One further note on exactly how the discrepancy appeared. Wolff is claiming that the FIA measured the temperature at a time when the rules would not allow it. The FIA are meant to verify the pressure before the 5 minute warning. They apparently measured it after that, hence why the blankets had already been turned off.

I have heard that the FIA never used to measure the pressures on the grid until this Pirelli directive. If this is true it partly explains the clumsy handling of taking tyre pressures. Only a non-technical (or daft) person could have attempted to do so in a such a variable and irrelevant environment..

[TAG]

What happened to Kimi in the start? Was he asleep?

Little too much promotion of his new drink brand?

[Lilith]

hello. new member, but today I saw something that made me make an acc here.

the whole radio communication with hamilton was strange, and not elaborated.
While most think its the tyres thing, smthin came to mind.

its just a theory, but could it be that Merecdes knew the Nico car is going to fail, and fearing a safety car, they wanted to make sure Hamilton would have enough time to pit?

[MercedesAMGSpy]

Deserved win for Lewis Hamilton. Blondie was in total control, always a pleasure to watch. I think we would have seen a better race with a good start for Raikkonen, always something goes wrong....

[PlatinumZealot]

hello. new member, but today I saw something that made me make an acc here.

the whole radio communication with hamilton was strange, and not elaborated.
While most think its the tyres thing, smthin came to mind.

its just a theory, but could it be that Merecdes knew the Nico car is going to fail, and fearing a safety car, they wanted to make sure Hamilton would have enough time to pit?

I thought so too. But I think it has to do with the infringement on the tyre pressures. Mercedes knew both were going to get penalized and so both drivers were told to turn up their engines.