Mercedes W13

[gcdugas]

It’s strange when wibbly wobbly floors are more efficient then streamlined floors

Like a golf ball... dimples better than smooth...

[Stu]

It’s strange when wibbly wobbly floors are more efficient then streamlined floors

Like a golf ball... dimples better than smooth...

Only if the ball is spinning. Does the floor spin?

[FWandE]

I have seen no step on the front wing. I'm not sure about the side plate but other cars seem similar, I'd be surprised if Merc didn't get their design approved.
I'm also not sure what you are talking about on the rear wing. Perhaps you could show some photos with the the bits that concern you highlighed in some way.

That is because you are looking at the renders which have what I believe to be a legal wing vs the launch car which has the step down in on the inner wing I am talking about. Since you can't post images directly using drag and drop I can not show you what I am talking about.

As for the rear wing it is the top of the back of the wing where Mercedes, Ferrari and maybe some others have taken a little cut out of the section and straightened the endplate leaving a sharp edge. The mercedes also looks to have some serrated edges along the rear vertical section of the rear wing from almost top to the bottom.

How do you know I am looking only at the renders. I am not. I have looked at lots of images of the real car and see no step in the front wing.
If I understand the rear wing issue from your description, Merc are definitely not the only team with this so what is the problem?

I'm often amazed when armchair critics think they have found some design feature that breaks F1 rules. Why do you think you know better than multi million dollar companies employing experts who are in regular contact with the rule makers. Granted these companies and their design teams will be pushing the rules to their limits, but that is why there are rules, to provide limits.
Also , remember that F1 teams will have assorted experts ready to challenge any dodgy looking design features on other cars. Surely it is better to assume the cars that race will be legal & to discuss here what the various design features of the cars are doing or attempting to do. So far all the cars have given us some interesting features. There are clearly some radically different aero strategies being tried.

[FWandE]

It’s strange when wibbly wobbly floors are more efficient then streamlined floors

Like a golf ball... dimples better than smooth...

Only if the ball is spinning. Does the floor spin?

No, but the floor doesn't have dimples either. It has a wave pattern. It's either a red herring or it is something that has a real beneficial effect in wind tunnel and/or simulation. If it is still on the car later in the season we can assume it is working. If it is changed or removed we can assume it is not.
Does anyone have new ideas about what it is doing? Is it just a way of generating vortices without breaking the rules? Or could it affect airflow in other ways?

[Stu]

Like a golf ball... dimples better than smooth...

Only if the ball is spinning. Does the floor spin?

No, but the floor doesn't have dimples either. It has a wave pattern. It's either a red herring or it is something that has a real beneficial effect in wind tunnel and/or simulation. If it is still on the car later in the season we can assume it is working. If it is changed or removed we can assume it is not.
Does anyone have new ideas about what it is doing? Is it just a way of generating vortices without breaking the rules? Or could it affect airflow in other ways?

According to the Kyle Engineers YouTube, it may be to create smaller vortices (smaller, but repeated, shedding edges), or to assist with outwash/downwash control; “without knowing what they are doing with the strakes inside the tunnel inlet and running the design through CFD, it is impossible to know what the effect (or effectiveness) of the design is”.

What they don’t have is a floor edge wing (or not showing it), the Williams is the only running car that I have seen currently that has shown this (and it appeared to have a significant vortex ‘cone’ that looked to be created by their floor edge and floor edge wing.
They may be (and I really hope that there are) many ways of ‘skinning a cat’ with these aero rules, which is the best thing about what we are seeing at the moment.

[Just_a_fan]

I got to same questions looking at the difference between Ferrari and Merc rear wings.

'Downforce at all costs' is a risky exercise now as Honda has been on par with performance and noises from Ferrari claim they have regained a lot of power. The engine power is even more skewed situation due to E10. Unless, Merc have found a miracle fountain of power that then allows them to go for 2019 philosophy of 'Downforce at all costs' . The other plausible theory could be, this is once again an old iteration of the development phase and they have another, more advanced version scheduled to come out.

Or they have an otherwise low drag car and so the wings aren't an issue.

Or they have just presented the car in its "it's wet for the filming day and we don't want to bend the new car" maximum downforce trim.

Or none of the teams have shown a representative car yet.

Or...

Edit: sorry I replied to the wrong person and am too inept to work out how to delete my comment. How embarrassing for me.

I love comments like this because what is your point? I of course acknowledge all of those things. I’m just introducing I thought an interesting hypothesis into discussion based on an analysis by a professional. Isn’t that the point of forums? To discuss things? Or is it just to say “nobody knows so why ask?” Ok my apologies I will be sure not to.

My comment was a reply to Ryar's not yours.

[Unc1eM0nty]

It’s strange when wibbly wobbly floors are more efficient then streamlined floors

Like a golf ball... dimples better than smooth...

Only if the ball is spinning. Does the floor spin?

I believe it's the dimples that cause a golf ball to spin.

[FWandE]

Like a golf ball... dimples better than smooth...

Only if the ball is spinning. Does the floor spin?

I believe it's the dimples that cause a golf ball to spin.

I think you will find that the angle and contact point of the golf club imparts the initial spin. The dimples may have an effect on maintaining the spin, but I thought their main role was to reduce drag.

[am314159]

I have seen no step on the front wing. I'm not sure about the side plate but other cars seem similar, I'd be surprised if Merc didn't get their design approved.
I'm also not sure what you are talking about on the rear wing. Perhaps you could show some photos with the the bits that concern you highlighed in some way.

That is because you are looking at the renders which have what I believe to be a legal wing vs the launch car which has the step down in on the inner wing I am talking about. Since you can't post images directly using drag and drop I can not show you what I am talking about.

As for the rear wing it is the top of the back of the wing where Mercedes, Ferrari and maybe some others have taken a little cut out of the section and straightened the endplate leaving a sharp edge. The mercedes also looks to have some serrated edges along the rear vertical section of the rear wing from almost top to the bottom.

How do you know I am looking only at the renders. I am not. I have looked at lots of images of the real car and see no step in the front wing.

Screencaps from kyle.engineers' youtube vid where he refers to it as a "step" at the "flap adjuster bracket" and speculates to its uses for vortex generation.

Disclaimer: I'm not at all familiar with the rules and make no claims either way with regard to legality of the front wing, just pointing out what some people are seeing (perhaps carisi2k too?) and calling a "step" in the front wing.

[Shakeman]

It’s strange when wibbly wobbly floors are more efficient then streamlined floors

Like a golf ball... dimples better than smooth...

Only if the ball is spinning. Does the floor spin?

Seriously? What has spin got to do with anything here?

You understand that golf ball dimples primary purpose is drag reduction due to the effect on the boundary layer i.e reduces wake length? Spin of the ball changes the lift of the ball in a desired direction as the shape of the boundary layer is changed by the spin.

[nim_peter]

Might be a stupid question. I understand the regulations are written to push dirty air above the car behind for closer racing. Will teams try any trick to push dirty air onto the following cars to gain advantage or to hamper downforce and speed of the car behind?

[the EDGE]

Might be a stupid question. I understand the regulations are written to push dirty air above the car behind for closer racing. Will teams try any trick to push dirty air onto the following cars to gain advantage or to hamper downforce and speed of the car behind?

the simple answer is No

Teams will try to push the air upwards, as this creates Downforce... the force of the air pushing downwards on whatever obstacle (such as a rear wing) that is directing the air upwards

Teams have never tried to deliberately aim dirty air at the competition, its counter intuitive. What they have tried to do is push the air from the front of the car outwards, to try to remove the dirty air created by the front wheels away from rear of the car to stop it interfering with the clean air necessary for the successful operation of the diffuser & rear wing. this is the outwash effect, first this was by using the front wing, and then from the intricate bargeboards introduced when the FIA clamped down on the front wings (which only made things worst)

The outwash's effect on following cars was simply a consequential effect

[Stu]

Like a golf ball... dimples better than smooth...

Only if the ball is spinning. Does the floor spin?

Seriously? What has spin got to do with anything here?

You understand that golf ball dimples primary purpose is drag reduction due to the effect on the boundary layer i.e reduces wake length? Spin of the ball changes the lift of the ball in a desired direction as the shape of the boundary layer is changed by the spin.

The dimples only work to reduce the boundary layer if the ball is rotating.

[jjn9128]

Only if the ball is spinning. Does the floor spin?

Seriously? What has spin got to do with anything here?

You understand that golf ball dimples primary purpose is drag reduction due to the effect on the boundary layer i.e reduces wake length? Spin of the ball changes the lift of the ball in a desired direction as the shape of the boundary layer is changed by the spin.

The dimples only work to reduce the boundary layer if the ball is rotating.

It's also about Reynolds number - golf ball = low reynolds number so viscous effects dominate - f1 car = high reynolds number so inertial effects dominate PLUS boundary layer will transition to turbulence in a fairly short distance.

[Mchamilton]

It’s strange when wibbly wobbly floors are more efficient then streamlined floors

Like a golf ball... dimples better than smooth...

Only if the ball is spinning. Does the floor spin?

Not just when spinning, just when moving. Porsche use golf ball style dinple on some of their plastic undertrays as it provides a drag benefit