2024 United States Grand Prix - COTA, Oct 18-20

[DGP123]

Speaking of Hamilton. Was that his worst F1 weekend ever?

His future car just smashed the field. He won’t care about this horror show, which was not of his doing anyway.

[andrewf1]

I guess if theres one driver who deserves to experience Maxs style of driving, its Lando Norris. His biggest fan. He loves it, after all. Just not when hes on the receiving end.

I wonder if he'll be seen raving with Max after this season as he was in the aftermath of 2021.

Imagine how angry you would be if Max and Lando were in a close title fight, Max did the same maneuver into a 280+ kmh corner, sent Lando to the hospital, only received a slap on the wrist, and raved like a madman.

I don't think the penalty was justified (at least not without also giving Max a penalty for forcing him wide), but you have to remember the other side feels just as much contempt for you as you do for them.

The only reason no other driver “ended up in the hospital” (he just went for the mandatory check meanwhile but Max fans will depict it as if he was hospitalized in a comma) while racing Max is because the rest of the drivers take something called “avoiding action” when being on the outside of Verstapen at least!

That glorious for f1 day Maxy boy didn’t want to take “avoiding action”! He wanted to play it tough around the outside of a Hamilton racing in his own backyard! So guess what! He got a pretty nice taste of his own medicine!

Hamilton’s penalty was way more than he deserved really! It was lap 1, no driver giving an inch…pretty simple racing accident! Max has been doing these “lap 1 - all in” maneuvers for years with no penalties whatsoever…

Max went to the hospital for one of those precautionary cranial nerve exams you see in asmr videos, was released a couple of hours later because he was fine and then he posted on twitter - yet his fans act as if he was hospitalized on life support.

It's honestly becoming obvious that other drivers need to shunt him more often, because the stewards are hell-bent on never penalizing his abusive driving standard and an unsporting bully like him only understands force.

He drives people off the road while leaving the track and not making the corner, he keeps position off-track while flooring it in the run-off.

His tactic is abusive and unsporting, but if he never gets punished, he will always repeat it.

[basti313]

But Max was only ahead at the apex because he braked far too late.

That does not matter. The rule is objective, ahead or not. Why he got there is subjective and subjective people here want objective ruling.
Change the rules again to make it even more objective -> people here will fight more as they are not intelligent enough to understand it anymore.

Lando would have got round the bend, but Max didn't.

Well, that is also a subjective claim. Not sure if anyone can answer this, maybe not even Lando with his cooking tires at this point.

To be honest, Sainz did have the apex

No. This may be subjectively honest, but is objectively just wrong Vanja
Sainz never had anything ahead, he simply was too far away.

But nice example, how we need to argue about cm at the apex...shows how good the rule is.

I’ve written it a thousand times but no one wants to listen!

No one wants to read your nonsense posts. At this line I stop.

[chrstphrln]

But Max was only ahead at the apex because he braked far too late.

That does not matter. The rule is objective, ahead or not. Why he got there is subjective and subjective people here want objective ruling.
Change the rules again to make it even more objective -> people here will fight more as they are not intelligent enough to understand it anymore.

Lando would have got round the bend, but Max didn't.

Well, that is also a subjective claim. Not sure if anyone can answer this, maybe not even Lando with his cooking tires at this point.

No, that is by no means subjective.
The stewards have the data. They know the braking points. They incorporate this data into their decisions anyway, if necessary.
They simply made it too easy for themselves yesterday and created a dangerous reference case.
Which did F1 no favours.

[Vanja #66]

No. This may be subjectively honest, but is objectively just wrong Vanja
Sainz never had anything ahead, he simply was too far away.

[epo]

I’ve written it a thousand times but no one wants to listen!

Verstapen did exactly the same move on Sainz at the exact same turn while Sainz was ahead at the apex! No penalties there though! Just because it’s lap 1 it doesn’t mean you can do whatever you like I guess…

I’ve said in the past and I’m gonna say it again! The FIA has been playing it blind against Max for years now since 2016! I don’t know what they’re trying to achieve? Keep him entertained so that he doesn’t retire and f1 loses his fans maybe? I don’t know really…

Moving under braking, going over pit exit lines, going over the grid starting box, pushing other drivers off the track while being miles behind them, leaving no one car’s width when racing wheel to wheel!

All these stuff have been penalized in the past and drivers have gotten penalties for way less! I don’t see this changing anytime soon! But! If one day the head of the FIA and the stewarding panel changes…don’t get shocked if Max starts receiving penalties race after race…

And then his classic “f1 is boring now, I’ll just retire” quote will start surfacing again…

Because it is always the same crap what you are writing, singing the same song.. Hamilton is great and Verstappen sucks.

[andrewf1]

But Max was only ahead at the apex because he braked far too late.

That does not matter. The rule is objective, ahead or not. Why he got there is subjective and subjective people here want objective ruling.

There's nothing subjective about the fact that Max left the track while defending the inside.
It's insulting to every fan's intelligence to argue "we may never truly know" why Max got ahead at the apex, when he subsequently didn't make the corner and went off-track, whilst on the inside line.

It was a smaller scale replica of Brazil 2021 and Saudi 2021, he was not interested in the corner at all.

If the rule doesn't state "the defending car has to make the corner and stay within track-limits", then yes it needs to be changed.

Max had all 4 wheels off-track. Being able to deduce something is not subjective. Telemetry would be able to prove what is obvious to the naked eye, but that will never be released.

[chrisc90]

No. This may be subjectively honest, but is objectively just wrong Vanja
Sainz never had anything ahead, he simply was too far away.

https://i.ibb.co/sqQRfKW/Screenshot-202 ... 4928-2.png

Surely there’s a better image to give some actual context to that discussion? That pic shows nothing, not even the corner apex

[Vanja #66]

Surely there’s a better image to give some actual context to that discussion? That pic shows nothing, not even the corner apex

Feel free to find one. It's literally the apex view. The point is moot, Sainz left the track trying to overtake and would have been penalised if he didn't return the position even if it was Lap 1 incident. My point is that it's not the same situstion as Lap 52 incident

[chrisc90]

Surely there’s a better image to give some actual context to that discussion? That pic shows nothing, not even the corner apex

Feel free to find one. It's literally the apex view. The point is moot, Sainz left the track trying to overtake and would have been penalised if he didn't return the position even if it was Lap 1 incident. My point is that it's not the same situstion as Lap 52 incident

I’ll have a look later. See what I can find.

[basti313]

There's nothing subjective about the fact that Max left the track while defending the inside.

No, but does not matter.

It's insulting to every fan's intelligence to argue "we may never truly know" why Max got ahead at the apex, when he subsequently didn't make the corner and went off-track, whilst on the inside line.

Yes. But you want subjective ruling. Now it is subjective, not "intelligent".

It was a smaller scale replica of Brazil 2021 and Saudi 2021, he was not interested in the corner at all.

You can not ask for rule changes every year again and then compare to last years with different rules. That is also not "intelligent".

If the rule doesn't state "the defending car has to make the corner and stay within track-limits", then yes it needs to be changed.

Why? Everyone needs to stay in track limits, that rule is there and enough. It does simply not need rules to judge offroad racing in F1.

There is a rule when you can and when you can not run your opponent off track. People here and everywhere wanted it to be super subjective, without "intelligence". Now you have it. Learn to live with it.
Verstappen learned to live with it. And if this is what makes him WDC in the end...not nice, but it is what it is...

[SiLo]

The only correct answer to the Max vs Norris incident, is that both of them should have been given a penalty.

You can't defend by just flying into the corner, not making it but making sure the person trying to overtake has to run off track so they don't crash.

[basti313]

Surely there’s a better image to give some actual context to that discussion? That pic shows nothing, not even the corner apex

Feel free to find one. It's literally the apex view. The point is moot, Sainz left the track trying to overtake and would have been penalised if he didn't return the position even if it was Lap 1 incident. My point is that it's not the same situstion as Lap 52 incident

I can not see these pictures due to company network...but I do not need them. In the Youtube recap of Sky Germany you can see the onboard of Sainz. There you constantly see the left front of Verstappen ahead. They of course both went deep into the corner, maybe making the view difficult, but to my understanding they judge the normal apex and that was quite early in the corner for them.

[venkyhere]

pages and pages of discussion about stewarding, and I'm not sure whether I remember seeing a very simple take on this :

it might (please note I don't know for sure) be the 'theme' for stewarding that -
(a) the action for 'gaining a position' , ie by an attacker
v/s
(b) the action for 'not losing a position' ie by a defender
carry different weightages for deciding 'guilty' or 'not guilty' ?

If we assume for a moment that all those complex conditions about 'who has the right to the corner via position at apex' , 'whose steering angle and braking/throttle data needs to be examined', 'who was trying to avoid a crash v/s who was trying to create a crash' etc etc , are governed by --> defender (b) is considered less guilty than attacker (a) for the same action ; and then if we look at the 4 stewarding incidents :

1 Max(a) pushing Norris wide in T1 on lap1 (and then Norris losing position via staying outside)
2 Sainz(a) pushing Max wide (T1 or T12?) (and then Max keeping his position via staying outside)
3 Russel(a) pushing Bottas wide in T1 on lapXX (and then Bottas losing position via staying outside)
4 Max(b) pushing Norris wide in T1 on lapYY (and then Norris gaining position via staying outside)

Then only in case 1 have they breached this theme. And that is usual with lap1 stewarding, being overtly lenient.

I am not trying to claim that Max is an innocent racer or he never forces fellow racers into a disadvantage. I am just saying Max probably is cleverer than others in 'gaming the system'. I consider Lewis to be as clever a gamer of the system as Max is.

[AMG.Tzan]

But Max was only ahead at the apex because he braked far too late.

That does not matter. The rule is objective, ahead or not. Why he got there is subjective and subjective people here want objective ruling.
Change the rules again to make it even more objective -> people here will fight more as they are not intelligent enough to understand it anymore.

Lando would have got round the bend, but Max didn't.

Well, that is also a subjective claim. Not sure if anyone can answer this, maybe not even Lando with his cooking tires at this point.

To be honest, Sainz did have the apex

No. This may be subjectively honest, but is objectively just wrong Vanja
Sainz never had anything ahead, he simply was too far away.

But nice example, how we need to argue about cm at the apex...shows how good the rule is.

I’ve written it a thousand times but no one wants to listen!

No one wants to read your nonsense posts. At this line I stop.

But Max was only ahead at the apex because he braked far too late.

“That does not matter.”

Wow…imagine telling me about “nonsense posts”