2024 United States Grand Prix - COTA, Oct 18-20

[langedweil]

You can't defend by just flying into the corner, not making it but making sure the person trying to overtake has to run off track so they don't crash.

Well, one can appearantly make 3 tracklimit violations before the B&W comes out. Doesn't state whether defending is involved or not.
Way back in Bahrein some were cutting a corner for 30+ laps (giving an unfair advantage), but got suddenly strictly policed when a driver asked about that on the teamradio .. unfair advantage is just that.

[chrisc90]

Heres the overhead footage.



And slo-mo.




I think Sainz was level with Max.

[Artur Craft]

This guy Colapinto is genuinely good. Another excellent race by him to finish in the top 10

He´s ok. The fact he is looking that good is because Albon is very overated, due to being massively flattered by Latifi ( just like Russell and de Vries)

Better than qualifying a car good enough to win races this year at p19, then beaching it like a beginner. Infinitely better.

Stop mocking Lewis! He´s doing us a favour now that Sargeant is gone

Go ahead and watch 2008, 2017 and 2018 if you wanna see what’s it’s like having a 2-3rd fastest car and still winning

In my opinion, the correct decision would have been to give Lando the 5 seconds for overtaking off the track and Max for forcing him off.

Yeah, that´s reasonable

Put Verstappen in the McLaren and he is already the world champion.

You could add Leclerc, Sainz, Hamilton and possibly Alonso to that list. Who else?

are you effin kidding me?

His future car just smashed the field. He won’t care about this horror show, which was not of his doing anyway.

I envy your optimism, btw

[Vettel165]

Heres the overhead footage.



And slo-mo.




I think Sainz was level with Max.

Yeah agree, Sainz was level with Max at the apex or even slightly behind. Meanwhile Max was ahead when he had the fight with Norris. Big difference.

[basti313]

Heres the overhead footage.



And slo-mo.




I think Sainz was level with Max.

Yeah agree, Sainz was level with Max at the apex or even slightly behind. Meanwhile Max was ahead when he had the fight with Norris. Big difference.

I doubt they were looking at this in this detail. My first view was from the onboard, and there you can always see the RedBull front wing in front of the Ferrari tire...means it is ahead. I would have closed the case at this point.

But it seems we need something like the goal line technology in Soccer to judge "who is ahead at the apex" in the future.

[AMG.Tzan]

Surely there’s a better image to give some actual context to that discussion? That pic shows nothing, not even the corner apex

Feel free to find one. It's literally the apex view. The point is moot, Sainz left the track trying to overtake and would have been penalised if he didn't return the position even if it was Lap 1 incident. My point is that it's not the same situstion as Lap 52 incident

The apex view, from the livestream gives a different perspective to the onboard. On Sainz onboard, he never looks ahead of Max.



https://ibb.co/6mrMnWm
temporary image hosting

Sainz had no rights to the corner IMHO. And tbh, should have got a 10s penalty for forcing a car off track. Same as Russell did.

So if we take into account your opinion, Norris who was fully ahead of Verstapen down the straight (as TFSA showcased above) and then gets pushed off the track by Verstapen is ok and so Max should get a 10s penalty for pushing someone off the track…


This “who’s ahead at the apex” rule has been total nonsense for years now! It depends on a ton of things if someone ends up ahead at the apex! Staying on track while overtaking seems more important as it shows if you’re under control of your own car or not!

[Shrieker]

Let me get this straight, you can let the brake go, go wide outside of track limits, take the other guy on the outside out with you, and you're good.

Pathetic ruling.

[Mogster]

Let me get this straight, you can let the brake go, go wide outside of track limits, take the other guy on the outside out with you, and you're good.

Pathetic ruling.

Essentially yes, as long as you clip the apex ahead of your rival.

You can ease off the brake to make sure you are ahead, then go straight on, blocking the track with your car. This forces your rival on to the run off as they have nowhere else to go and have already braked late. They then can’t overtake you without sanction as they are off track. It means you can’t be overtaken on the outside, so trying that move is pointless, as I was lamely shouting at the TV on Sunday evening.

I’m not sure why anyone is surprised by this. It’s been Max’s signature move since 2021… I don’t blame him for doing it, it’s just exploiting the rules. I almost wish others would do it more often as then it would become ridiculous and force a rules change.

[chrisc90]

Let me get this straight, you can let the brake go, go wide outside of track limits, take the other guy on the outside out with you, and you're good.

Pathetic ruling.

Essentially yes, as long as you clip the apex ahead of your rival.

You can ease off the brake to make sure you are ahead, then go straight on, blocking the track with your car. This forces your rival on to the run off as they have nowhere else to go and have already braked late. They then can’t overtake you without sanction as they are off track. It means you can’t be overtaken on the outside, so trying that move is pointless, as I was lamely shouting at the TV on Sunday evening.

I’m not sure why anyone is surprised by this. It’s been Max’s signature move since 2021… I don’t blame him for doing it, it’s just exploiting the rules. I almost wish others would do it more often as then it would become ridiculous and force a rules change.

I mean you can almost beg to question why other drivers havent started doing the same. If it's allowed by the rules, then the other drivers have been snoozing for the last 3 years.

Or, another theory, they just turn in and take the widest possible line on the track, and let the 'defending' car run into them. That way they are penalised for causing a collision rather than get run off the track. I mean it has its consequences of course that it might end your race.

[CjC]

Let me get this straight, you can let the brake go, go wide outside of track limits, take the other guy on the outside out with you, and you're good.

Pathetic ruling.

Essentially yes, as long as you clip the apex ahead of your rival.

You can ease off the brake to make sure you are ahead, then go straight on, blocking the track with your car. This forces your rival on to the run off as they have nowhere else to go and have already braked late. They then can’t overtake you without sanction as they are off track. It means you can’t be overtaken on the outside, so trying that move is pointless, as I was lamely shouting at the TV on Sunday evening.

I’m not sure why anyone is surprised by this. It’s been Max’s signature move since 2021… I don’t blame him for doing it, it’s just exploiting the rules. I almost wish others would do it more often as then it would become ridiculous and force a rules change.

I mean you can almost beg to question why other drivers havent started doing the same. If it's allowed by the rules, then the other drivers have been snoozing for the last 3 years.

Or, another theory, they just turn in and take the widest possible line on the track, and let the 'defending' car run into them. That way they are penalised for causing a collision rather than get run off the track. I mean it has its consequences of course that it might end your race.

Isn’t that what Lando did in Austria and it ended his race?

This is a good article:

https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/land ... ssing-him/

Good point made is that Verstappen can afford to risk a collision with who ever is trying to overtake him currently. WDC is basically his and the WCC basically isn’t.

[Seanspeed]

I mean you can almost beg to question why other drivers havent started doing the same.

I have, quite a bit. I dont understand how any driver ever lets anybody pass them on the outside when you're essentially allowed to run them off by ensuring you go deeper than them into the corner so it's *impossible* for them to be technically ahead of you at any point.

Yet we praise the 'good racing' that does happen when drivers do give room.

I've said over and over, this whole thing could be fixed by making it mandatory to give minimum space to any driver who is at all alongside you, in any situation, period. There should never ever be any situation where it's ok to run an opponent off the road. It's not just unfair, but it's dangerous and it deprives us of better action. When drivers give each other room, we get way more side by side action and battling through multiple corner stretches.

This goes for defending and overtaking. If you drive to the limits of the track, forcing another driver that was alongside you off-track, it should be a cut and dried five second penalty. With progressively more severe punishment for any repeated offenses in a race. There would be little need for analysis or deep consideration or anything, the rule would be super straightforward. And no, you couldn't exploit it by going off yourself and demanding somebody else be penalized for it as we will see if the other driver actually gave enough room for you to have stuck alongside. If they did, then it was your choice to go off unnecessarily.

[chrisc90]

I agree that giving others room leads to better viewing for racing.

The problem comes when the FIA give a location to where one car has priority over the other.

It’s a tough one to get right. Personally, I think the apex is far too late.

Maybe they could change it to allowing other drivers space whilst in the braking zones. But then you expect 1 driver not to be able to run out to the best line on track after the corner.

I don’t really have a massive issue with the current rules, provided the defending car stays on track and keeps it clean.

[Shrieker]

Let me get this straight, you can let the brake go, go wide outside of track limits, take the other guy on the outside out with you, and you're good.

Pathetic ruling.

Essentially yes, as long as you clip the apex ahead of your rival.

"Apex ahead"

That's just grade A BS, if I've ever heard one. If someone's on the outside, you crowd them out so bad you go out of the track completely yourself, the overtake stands. Or if the attacking car doesn't pass, you get a penalty for blatantly crowding out another car. He didn't get penalized for this a few years ago in brazil so he keeps doing this. I've never seen a more privileged driver in some 30 years of following F1.

[pantherxxx]

Sainz was clearly not ahead, it's just an illusion because he is on the inside so it looks like that. It wasn't a completed overtake from Sainz, so because of this Verstappen didn't gain a position, thus no penalty.

[jknights]

The only correct answer to the Max vs Norris incident, is that both of them should have been given a penalty.

You can't defend by just flying into the corner, not making it but making sure the person trying to overtake has to run off track so they don't crash.

I have to agree, but a solution is to add armco at all corners. If you are unwilling because it makes it unsafe for MotoGP then I am sure some other 'car damaging' solution can be found!