2024 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Oct 25 - 27

[basti313]

One that always stuck in my mind was when Max crashed into Hamilton at Monza a couple of years back on purpose as a DNF for them both benefited him.

Toto called it a professional foul. Max is a specialist at these. Which on one hand makes him a dirty cheat, but on the other hand it’s working for him and creating advantages so maybe he is just playing the game better than the others.

Well, the wording is a bit strange...back at the day it was not at all clear if Ham needs to leave the space or not. In this regard the (stupid) cm rule today is at least clear. Stewards just handed pen by their feelings, what was ok in that instance, of course.
So I feel a bit foul by Toto. The two crashed, because every one of the two wanted to make a point. Well deserved crash, I would have penalized both for being stupid.

But generally for the professional foul: It is a bit like football. If you are slower than your opponent, your hand on the jersey of your opponent can compensate a lot.
In this regard...what else should Max do, but race as hard as he can? Just wave Lando a nice goodbye when he passes? I am a bit surprised by the expectations...

Verstappen got 10s for pushing other driver off the track in the first incident. What happened in the second incident? He pushed Norris off track and he overtook off the track.

Did you read and understand the explanation by the stewards?

Btw I think that they need to think about penalties being forced to serve them in a certain amount of laps.

That was removed on purpose as going through the pits simply ruins the whole race for minor infractions.
In DTM they introduced a slow zone to do this, works really nice. Would also be good in F1. Just 10m at the inside at the beginning of a straight, where they need to go through with the pit limiter.

[FittingMechanics]

Did you read and understand the explanation by the stewards?

Yes. I am not talking about the stewards explanation. They say that Verstappen was ahead at apex and thus entitled to racing room (on the inside). Then he was not able to stay on track and thus gained a lasting advantage.

I am saying that the stewards ignored that Verstappen also forced Norris off in that corner. Even if Verstappen was ahead at apex (as an attacker) he is not allowed to force the other driver off the track. That much was clear in Austin where other drivers got the penalty when they dived on the inside when attacking.

To put it simply, in Austin defender who got to apex first on the inside was allowed to push the other driver off.
In Mexico VER was an attacker so not comparable.

That was removed on purpose as going through the pits simply ruins the whole race for minor infractions.
In DTM they introduced a slow zone to do this, works really nice. Would also be good in F1. Just 10m at the inside at the beginning of a straight, where they need to go through with the pit limiter.

Yes, I understand why they moved away from serving them in pits, but I am talking about severe big penalties. Here Max had two big penalties and if he had a car he usually had, he wouldn't have lost a point, just like in Austria. Penalties need to be severe enough for people to stop doing it. Getting +5s time penalty for being wide in 3-4 laps is fine, but getting +5 or +10 for shoving a driver off track, that should be more punitive. Another example VER fans like to bring up is Silverstone. Hamilton got just a 10s penalty which didn't really mean a thing.

DTM slow zone would be a much better solution than serving it at next pitstop or added to the end of race. It would mean penalty gets served immediately instead of potentially much later in the race. With how these cars like clean air and how hard it can be to overtake, it is not punitive enough to add them +5 or +10s over half a race, these cars can easily gain that advantage if they are in clean air.

[basti313]

Even if Verstappen was ahead at apex (as an attacker) he is not allowed to force the other driver off the track.

No. That is called "outbraking". You go to the inside, brake late and force your car ahead, as you block the line for the outside car.
There is and will never be a rule forbidding this. And this is what the stewards write with their "racing room" explanation.
The only issue was he was too fast and did not make the corner. Usually a slam dunk 5s...but again, I am very happy with 10s on this, I just hope that the same is not again 5s next week.

That much was clear in Austin where other drivers got the penalty when they dived on the inside when attacking.

No. They draw a very solid line on the apex thing.

[FittingMechanics]

Even if Verstappen was ahead at apex (as an attacker) he is not allowed to force the other driver off the track.

No. That is called "outbraking". You go to the inside, brake late and force your car ahead, as you block the line for the outside car.
There is and will never be a rule forbidding this. And this is what the stewards write with their "racing room" explanation.
The only issue was he was too fast and did not make the corner. Usually a slam dunk 5s...but again, I am very happy with 10s on this, I just hope that the same is not again 5s next week.

You are wrong.

From the document 65 from Austin, decision on George Russel.

Fact Forcing car 77 off the track at turn 12.
Infringement Breach of Appendix L, Chapter IV, Article 2 b) of the International Sporting Code.

Decision 5 second time penalty.
Reason The Stewards reviewed positioning/marshalling system data and in-car video
evidence.
The Driving Standard Guidelines provide that when overtaking on the inside the driver
must not force the other car off the track and must leave a fair and acceptable width
for the car being overtaken. This did not occur on this occasion.
However in mitigation, a 5 second penalty is imposed instead of the standard 10
second penalty because the Stewards determine that the forcing off track was not
deliberate, and the driver of Car 63 was in control of the car at all times.

So, to make it simple. The rule in Austin (and probably here was).

1. If you are attacker on inside you must leave space for the defender on the outside. (VER didn't do this in Mexico on T7/T8)
2. If you are defender on the inside ahead at apex, you don't have to leave space for the attacker on the outside (VER in Austin)

The fact that they just used "gained a lasting advantage" for T7 is just laziness. VER did both, he forced NOR off and gained a lasting advantage by going off track. My point is that even if he stayed on track he wouldn't be allowed to force NOR off because VER was the attacker.

[Seanspeed]

Another race proving we simply need a rule that you're not allowed to force another driver that's alongside you off-track, for any reason whatsoever. Drivers aren't even trying to race cleanly anymore and it's just making things ugly and unfair. Allowing these stipulations for when it's ok to run another driver off-track is so ridiculous and unneeded.

[FittingMechanics]

Another race proving we simply need a rule that you're not allowed to force another driver that's alongside you off-track, for any reason whatsoever. Drivers aren't even trying to race cleanly anymore and it's just making things ugly and unfair. Allowing these stipulations for when it's ok to run another driver off-track is so ridiculous and unneeded.

Completely agreed. We want side by side racing, why is there a stipulation that makes it legal to force a driver off? As people usually say, if the white line was the wall no one would be forcing other driver off because both would crash.

Well, all except Max against Lando that is. He wouldn't mind for them both to crash into a wall.

[SiLo]

I think the harsher penalties are warranted, but it might have been related to whatever discussion the FIA had with the drivers on this specific topic. The stewards probably wanted to make a point that they had literally just had a meeting about exactly this behaviour, and haven't had time to update the rules to combat it.

I think the more egregious stewarding was around Perez, Lawson and Stroll.

[fourmula1]

Another race proving we simply need a rule that you're not allowed to force another driver that's alongside you off-track, for any reason whatsoever. Drivers aren't even trying to race cleanly anymore and it's just making things ugly and unfair. Allowing these stipulations for when it's ok to run another driver off-track is so ridiculous and unneeded.

Completely agreed. We want side by side racing, why is there a stipulation that makes it legal to force a driver off? As people usually say, if the white line was the wall no one would be forcing other driver off because both would crash.

Well, all except Max against Lando that is. He wouldn't mind for them both to crash into a wall.

Yup to everything, but “along side” definition will become the thing.

Also, walls alone wont change anything, instead of going off the outside driver will just back out so as not to crash out.

I say harsher penalties for forcing drivers off/not leaving space. The racing is so much better this way.

[langedweil]

1st pen Ver remained on track, forced a driver offtrack, which in turn held his placeby going to the grass ..

[DDopey]

So how would their be ruled if Max would not reach the apex first, took the corner with enough width on the outside, but the other car would while being at the apex first overshoot the corner ? Is that then gaining an advantage, or was the overtake already done ? If it is gaining an advantage then I see no need to change the rules.

[pantherxxx]

Apparently two stewards for the Mexican Grand Prix were Johnny Herbert and Tim Mayer (son of McLaren co-founder Teddy Mayer).

Do you remember that in 2021 they wanted to remove one of the stewards because he had a Honda dealership? Now British and Mclaren-linked stewards are punishing Max.

Yes Max deserved a penalty maybe 5 seconds or 10 in total. Not 20.

[SharkY]

Apparently two stewards for the Mexican Grand Prix were Johnny Herbert and Tim Mayer (son of McLaren co-founder Teddy Mayer).

Well, in US a British steward punished Lando.
Also, in Mexico there were in total 4 stewards, with a French and a Mexican among them. Apparently they did not disagree.
What is your way out this situation? Exclude stewards from the same nationalities as the drivers? Hardly doable.

Do you remember that in 2021 they wanted to remove one of the stewards because he had a Honda dealership? Now British and Mclaren-linked stewards are punishing Max.

Did it actually happen, though? Was he sacked?

Yes Max deserved a penalty maybe 5 seconds or 10 in total. Not 20.

You can disagree with it, as stewards' decisions are often subjective, so they are prone to incite quarrels. However, as you can see here, many people agree with it (myself included, even though I'd have reduced it to 5+10, but I'm not against 20).

[stephen]

Another race where Red Bull was much slower in the race than qualifying.

[Quantum]

Another race where Red Bull was much slower in the race than qualifying.

2 races in a row.

Almost like something happened....

[Vettel165]

Imagine if this heavy rain with a front comes down on sunday, which is now predicted for next monday or tuesday. They may as well cancel the race, you never know with this weather in Brasil. For now looking dry mostly.